REPORT 



HV 8345 
.fl7 
1881 
Copy 1 



OF 



Committee on Penitentiary 



TO THE 



Thirty-First General Assembly of Missouri, 



TO WHOM WAS REFERRED THE RESOLUTION OF MR. JOHNSON OF ST. 

LOUIS, INSTRUCTING THEM TO INQUIRE INTO THE MODE 

OF PUNISHING PRISONERS CONFINED IN THE 

PENITENTIARY. 



JEFFERSON CITY: 

TRIBUNE PRINTING COMPANY, STATE PRINTERS AND BINDERS. 

1881. 






Read, and 1,500 copies of report and testimony ordered printed, 1,000 copies for 
appendix to journal, and 500 copies for the use of the members of the House, March 
21, 18S1. 

J. H. HA.VVLEY. Chief Clerk. 



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REPORT 



Jefferson City, Mo., 
March 21, 1881. 

Mr. Speaker : Your Committee on Penitentiary, to whom was re- 
ferred the following resolution offered by Mr. Johnson of St. Louis, on 
the loth inst., as follows : 

Whereas, Rumors and statements prevail that cruel and unusual 
punishments are inflicted upon the convicts in the Missouri State Peni- 
tentiary ; therefore, be it 

Resolve'd, That the Committee on Penitentiary be and they are here- 
by instructed to inquire ito the same, and report the facts in the premises 
to this House at their earliest possible convenience, beg leave to re- 
port that immediately after the adoption thereof, they proceeded to the 
discharge of the duties assigned them, and for this purpose summoned 
the following witnesses, officers of the Penitentiary, and others : Dr 
W. B. Winston, Penitentiary Physician and Surgeon ; Capt. Bradbury, 
Deputy Warden ; Mrs. Sanford, Matron female department ; Mrs. Duns- 
combe, manager female working department; Major Dawson, foreman^ 
Giesecke & Co., shoe shop ; Mr. Bateman, foreman, Giesecke & Co., shoe 
shop ; Mr. Adams, foreman, Cooper, Patterson & Co., shoe shop ; Mr. 
Crowley, foreman, Cooper, Patterson & Co., shoe shop ; Mr. Mackey, 
foreman, Straus' tannery; Mr. Joe. Kneisley, citizen, Jefferson City; 
Dr. Thompson, physician, Jefferson City. Also the following convict 
witnesses : W. B. Richarson, convict, never punished ; J. J. Mason, 
convict, never punished ; Wm. Wyker, convict, never punished ; Fred. 
Beibusch , convict, never punished ; Capt. Bodinheimer, convict, never 
punished ; Jackson Callaway, negro, whipped three times, average 
lashes, ten each ; L. K. Borcky, white, whipped two times, six lashes 
each; John Wilson, white, whipped one time, three lashes. Total 



number of witness examined (IT) seventeen, whose testimony we here- 
with submit in full, without comment, preferring to leave the interior reg- 
ulations of the prison to the Warden, the Board of Prison Inspectors and 
the Legislature. These classes of witnesses were selected because we 
concluded that by giving all interested parties a hearing we would be 
able to elicit all the evidence and information that it was possible to 
obtain. How well we have succeeded, in the short time we could de- 
vote to the matter, must be determined by yourself, the members of 
the Legislature and the people of the State. 

Your committee find two modes of punishment in vogue in the 
prison, viz. : Whipping with a common riding cowhide and confine- 
ment in the dark cell, in which a convict is placed and allowed only 
bread and water. 

We find by the prison punishment register that the two punishments 
just named are nearly equally resorted to. Lashes administered rang- 
ing from (1) one to (23) twenty-three, other than in a very few excep- 
tional cases and hours of confinement in dark cell, running from (1) 
one to (48) forty-eight. All punishments are determined by the 
Deputy Warden, after having first heard the guard preferring the charges 
and the explanation by the prisoner against whom charges are preferred. 
Then the past record of the convict, his health and temperament, as 
well as his constitution and physique are always consulted and taken 
into account. It maybe well in this connection to add that the testimony 
shows not more than one convict in every three or four reported to the 
Deputy Warden by the guards, receive any punishment, and no convict 
is ever punished for his first offense. 

We find that the rules and regulations of the Penitentiary are es- 
tablished by the Board of Prison Inspectors, and printed and hung up 
in the cells and workshops, so that no prisoners violate them without 
an opportunity of a thorough knowledge of the attendant conse- 
quences. 

It will be noticed in some of the testimony by persons who have 
tiad extended prison experience in other States, that the Missouri State 
Penitentiary not only compares favorably, but is greatly preferable, 
if such a term is admissible, to the prisons of Illinois, Indiana, Michi- 
gan and Wisconsin ; not only as regards the general treatment of 
convicts as applies to their food, clothing, bedding and labor, but also 
to the various modes of punishment inflicted. 

In conclusion your committee most respectfully assures you that 
they have used every means at their command, within the time at their 
disposal, to investigate the entire inside workings and management of 
the prison, so as to enable them to give the House a full and complete 



history of the subject matter of the resolution above referred to, all of 
which is more fully set out in the testimony taken and herewith most 
respectfully submitted. 

J. W. BERRYMAN, Chairman. 

WM. DAWSON, 

CYRUS A. ANTHONY, 

A. L. BUZZARD, 

E. S.GARVER, 

H. CLAY EWING, 

JAS. C. McGINNIS. 



TESTIMONY 



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Office of J. R. Willis, 
Warden of Missouri Penitentiary 
Tuesday, March 15th. 1881 

The committee met at 12 o'clock M". 

Present : Messrs. Berryman, Chairman ; Anthony of Nodaway, 
Ewing and McGinnis. 

Mr. McGinnis : I move that we proceed with such witnesses as 
we may see fit to call before us of the guards and officers of the peni- 
tentiary first, and that afterwards if we wish to call any others, that 
we will then notify the Sergeant-at-Arms to summons the outsiders. 
Carried. 

Mr. McGinnis : I move that Mr. James Johnson be appointed 
official reporter. Carried. 

On motion of Mr. Ewing, Mr. James Johnson, official reporter, 
was sworn by the chairman. 

W. H. Bradbury, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : Captain, will you please state to the com- 
mittee your modes of punishment for refractory prisoners ? 

A. Yes, sir. We have about two or three modes of punishment 
for violation of the rules of the prison — failing to perform labor, etc. 
If the offense has not been a very grave one, why, I lock them up in 
the dungeon of an evening, make them lose their supper, take them 
out about half past eight o'clock, talk to them a little about it, and 
send them to ther cells. That's about the amount of that thing for 
light offenses. I never h^ve, I don't think, ever punished a man for 
the first offense in the penitentiary in my life ; I don't think I ever did. 
Always when young persons or young prisoners are reported to me, I 
generally go to them and talk to them and advise them. 



Q. What class of offenses is it that a man is whipped for? 

A. That is owing altogether to the number of offenses that he is 
guilty of, and the manner in which he commits them. If a prisoner is 
obstinate, refusing to work willingly, refusing to do a day's work, and I 
■cannot persuade him to do it in any other way, I whip him with a cow- 
hide. 

Mr. McGinnis : Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a suggestion 
to save questions — at least I make the suggestion, that Capt. Bradbury 
Tze requested, as a witness, to detail the system of punishment, not the 
whole system of discipline, but his system of punishment, and such 
other facts connected therewith as will throw light on the subject ? 

Witness : I will tell you in brief my system of getting at the vio- 
lations of the rules of the prison. What I require, for instance, is this : 
Every prisoner in the penitentiary is supposed to be in charge of some 
officer, either at the workshop or at some other kind of labor, the cook- 
ing department or something else. Well, they all have the rules of the 
penitentiary. When an officer comes to me and reports to me that a 
prisoner has violated the rules, I require him to bring it to me in writ- 
ing and place it on my file in the evening; then what is done, when I 
make up my account in the evening, I require that officer to bring that 
prisoner to me in person himself, and right then and there I examine 
him. If the offense has been a bad one, I decide right then what I will 
do with him, whether I whip him or whether I lock him in the dark 
•cell and keep him there all night; I decide then whether I will lock 
him in the dungeon or whether I will whip him. It is all owing to the 
man, what kind of a man he is, and the nature of the offense altogether. 
Sometimes a prisoner has a fight in the shop, and in order to keep that 
thing down, I punish him pretty severely for that ; for jumping up and 
attempting to kill a man with a knife — for sometimes that happens in 
the workshop and in the cell — I have to be pretty rigid to prevent them 
from carrying knives about their persons. Sometimes, you saw my card 
in the cell not allowed to carry them, sometimes a prisoner carries a knife 
and I punish him pretty severely for that, not because I want to pun- 
ish him particularly, but I want to keep that thing down ; I want them 
not to do that ; I want them to understand that they must not do that, 
^because prisoners get mad at each other sometimes and are liable to 
kill one another ; it has been done. I have always been very careful 
about punishing men. If a man is reported to me about committing 
an offense which I am likely to get a little angry about, I lock him up, 
and sometimes don't examine him for three or four hours, and then I 
don't examine him while I am mad ; I wait until my anger is all over ; 
I don't take him out when I am in a choler and am mad at him. 



Q. By the Chairman : It is no pleasure to whip him, then ? 

A. No, sir. I don't do it. I go and take my supper and take a 
smoke over it. 

Q. What do you think is about the average number of lashes 
prisoners receive here ? 

A. There is the best evidence on earth right there ; there is ike 
record (witness refers to the punishment register). 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : An open book in this office ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman : The highest I have seen here is 20 ; from 1 to 20. 

Witness: It runs very light, and sometimes it will go up higher. 
It averages pretty small, though. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Righthere I would like to ask this question : 
If that book is an exact record of the number of lashes received by 
prisoners, whose record of punishment is given in that register or 
record ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. They received just the number of lashes? 

A. Just exactly as is there, every one of them. Every one that 
is punished you find it on there. 

Q. By the Chairman : Is there any one else here that punishes 
besides yourself? 

A. No, sir. Never has been a man punished inside of the peni- 
tentiary to my knowledge for the last five or six years — I don't know 
how long — but what I was there present, examined him and inflicted 
the punishment myself. I ^ never entrusted it to anybody else. And 
another thing I'd like to say in connection with that : I never allow a 
guard to dictate to me, to say even what he thinks ought to be done 
with the man. I don't allow him to say that. What I want to know 
is the*facts. You will find that out by examining. 

Mr. McGinnis (to chairman) : Just ask him if he takes the state- 
ment of the convict also in connection with the report of the guard? 

Witness : Oh yes ! I always hear him. I always hear what he has 
to say. 

Q. By Mr. Ewing : What is the proportion of cases brought before 
you in relation to misconduct that you do not punish ? 

A. Well, I should suppose that about one third are punished. 

Q. By the Chairman : About one-third are punished ? 

A. Yes ; that is that comes before me ; that is a guess now ; of 
course I cannot tell ; 1 don't keep a record of those that are not pun- 
ished. 

Q. By Mr. Ewing : Does that book show a different sort of pun- 
ishment, punishment of all sorts ? 



9 

A. Yes, sir; it shows the dungeon, number of men who have 
been kept in the dungeon, so many hours ; you will find that on there ; 
I sometimes discharge a whole crew without any punishment. 

Q. By the Chairman : Are prisoners, as a rule, inclined to submit 
to prison regulation or not ? 

A. Very readily ; most of them ; a large majority. 

Q. And it seems the men that don't submit to it are punished ? 

A. It is a very small per cent, of them that have to be punished 
at all ; a very small per cent, of them. 

Q. Have you ever known a prisoner here to receive 70 lashes at 
one time ? 

A. Yes, sir ; not for a good many years, though ; not for a good 
many years. 

Q. And under whose regime was that ? 

A. Well, I don't remember now. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : It was the State, always ? 

A. Always in the hand of the State ; I don't remember who was 
Warden. 

Q. By the Chairman : You don't remember who inflicted the 
punishment? 

A. No ; I don't think I ever gave a man that many lashes in my 
life ; I don't know, I think I did, though, away back beyond — good many 
years ago — some fellow that tried to kill an officer or some one here ; I 
think I did a good many years ago. 

Q. By Mr. Ewing: How many years have you been connected 
with this prison in the capacity you are now, altogether? 

A. About twenty-five years ; something like that; may be a little 
longer and may be a little less ; the amount of punishment that pris- 
oners receive for offenses depend altogether upon the disposition and 
the inclination of the man to want to yield, do you understand ? If he 
is stubborn, and mulish, and defiant, wants to stick out in his course of 
conduct, of course he will receive more punishment ; very frequently 
men get off and I excuse them for the very same identical offense that 
others get punished for. A man comes up and admits an offense and says 
he committed it in the heat of passion, andhe is sorry for the offense, and 
he won't do it any more." 

Q. By the Chairman : You let him off ? 

A. Yes, sir; punishment won't do him any good. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis: Make punishment a theory then in this 
Penitentiary ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And if a man is defiant and is not obedient to the rules every 
possible means must be used to compel him to do it I 



30 

A. That's my idea exactly ; if a man comes to me in the proper 
spirit and wants to convince me that he wants to do right, and that the 
offense he has committed was done hastily and not intentionally, but 
through the heat of passion, when that man comes up and asks you to 
forgive him, that he is sorry that he did it, ,and the thing shall not occur 
any more, there is no use to punish that man — none in the world ; if 
you punish him, you will only get that promise from him anyhow; 
here comes another man with the very same offense, and he says 
he committed it and he did just exactly right— and he is going to do 
it — what are you going to do then ? You are bound to punish that 
man. 

Q. By the Chairman : What other punishment ? 

A. Solitary confinement, and fed upon bread and water ; lock them 
up in a blind cell three or four hours, and nothing else ; we have fre- 
quently used others in days gone by, but not in the last four or five 
years. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : You remember three or four days I was 
on this same matter once before ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. A nd there was a question of what was called the u bull-ring ?" 

A. Yes, sir; that has been used. 

Q. Since that time ? 

A. It has not been used for six or seven j^ears. 

Q. It has not been used since then ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. What do you consider the best manner of breaking a refrac- 
tory prisoner in i 

A. I have found the cowhide the best thing, the quickest and 
the safest ; you can take a refractory prisoner and you can bring him 
around by locking him up in solitary confinement and keep him there 
two months or six weeks, or something like that ; three or four days or 
forty-eight hours don't amount to a snap of your finger. 

Q. Captain, don't you find out that the most spirited men are men 
that are most amenable to reason when you talk to them. 

A. Yes, they are sensible, highminded, good, solid, thinking men ; 
you never have any trouble with ihem at all; if one of those men 
happens to get into trouble, you can sit down and talk to this man as 
soon as he gets out of his heat of passion ; lock him up and get him 
out, he is willing to acknowledge it; he sees through it in a moment. 

Q. Those incorrigibles who require excessive lashing, have you 
ever made an inquiry — as I suppose you do, of course — as to their former 
lives— what they are ? 

A. Oh, yes. 



11 

Q. How do you find them \ Do you find boys that way ? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Or do you find it among men who were in prison before ? 

A. I find it is as much among the boys as anything else. 

Q. What does it proceed from < 

A. It just proceeds from the nature of the man, just the dispo- 
sition of the man, being unenlightened, uneducated, uncultured, never 
had any education on earth, knew nothing but rowdyism from the time 
he was born. 

Q. By the Chairman : What race seems to preponderate in pun- 
ishment, the white or colored ? 

A. I don't think there is much difference — very little difference. 
You will find the negroes are generally more submissive, more so than 
this here low, degraded class of white men. There is a class of white 
men that are, if possible, below the nigger, you know, in regard to talent, 
and ability, and sense, and the negroes are better than they are ; easier 
controlled than that class of fellows. There is a class of men in the 
penitentiary, gentlemen, that are thieves, you know ; they have a theory 
among themselves outside that such and' such a fellow is a plucky 
fellow ; he is a brave thief; he is not chicken-hearted; he will go into 
your house, you know, when you are in there, and he will rob you ; he 
has got nerve ; that class of fellows want to retain that reputation 
among the prisoners when they get into the penitentiary. There are 
many men here that would take 25 lashes and add to them that repu- 
tation among that class of fellows— of being a plucky fellow — lots of 
them. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis: What kind of implement do you use in 
the castigation of prisoners ? 

A. Cowhide; just an ordinary rawhide, just like you ride with. 

Q. It cuts the flesh ? 

A. Oh, well; talk about blood running down — well, I have 
whipped more men, I guess, than any man on earth, and I have never 
seen no blood run down— I have heard all about blood running down 
the heels and over the shoe tops, and every thing like that; it is the 
rarest thing in the world to see a tinckling of blood ; it just raises a red 
stripe, and it is just according to the application or the skin that it does 
that ; if I had a light, thin-skinned fellow, I'd know how to whip him ; 
I would not lay it on to him ; a light tap will hurt him as much as a 
rough whipping will do with a man that has got hair on his back ; the 
moment I take the shirt off a man, I know how to whip him. 

On motion, the Committee adjourned for dinner. 



12 



AFTER DISN'ER. 



The Committee met at 1: 30 o'clock p. m. 

Present, the same as at 12 o'clock M. 

Examination of W. H. Bradbury resumed : 

Q. Captain : By what authority do you inflict a punishment by 
whipping ? 

A. That authority has been delegated to the Warden by the Board 
of Inspectors, and by him to me. 

Q. In your judgment is there any other mode of punishment 
that will take the place of whipping effectively \ 

A. Not so good. I don't think, sir: I think it is the best mode of 
punishment that we have that is known to me: the less danger of in- 
juring the subject than most any other mode of punishment that could 
be adopted. 

Q. Is it ever necessary to inflict that mode of punishment upon 
prisoners who are susceptible of argument ( 

A. Never, hardly ever necessary, sir. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Amenable to reason \ 

A. Amenable to reason ; good, fair-minded men. it is hardly ever 
necessary. 

Q. By the Chairman: Then this mode of punishment is not in- 
flicted indiscriminately among the convicts \ 

A. No, sir. 

Q. It is upon a class that you cannot reojh by any other mode \ 

A. You could not reach any other way. 

[Mr. Garver appeared and took a seat with the Committee.] 

By Mr. McGinnis : In what you stated awhile ago about severe 
punishment having been inflicted upon prisoners in former years, do 
you refer to anything that occurred since the investigations made into 
punishments in 1ST3 by a legislative committee \ 

A. I don't. 

Q. Prior to that time \ 

A. I don't go back beyond that : I mean to say this : That those 
70 lashes that 1 have reference to is beyond that ; that was investi- 
gated before ; there has been no prisoner received any severe punish- 
ments of that nature since that time — since the last investigation — 
since 1S73. to my knowledge; not since 1^7-i. I should say. because I 
came back here in 1ST4. 

Q. You know of punishments since 1873, Captain : 

A. Yes ; know all of them since that. 

Q. You have, since your return in 1S74. yourself inflicted all cor- 
poral punishment upon prisoners ■ 

A. Yes. sir. 



13 

Q. What is the maximum of punishment you have given in your 
recollection? Of course the record shows it, but what do you remem- 
ber of it \ 

A. My recollection is about 44 and 5; 45, probably ; about 45. 

Q. Do you whip rapidly, or do you give them a chance to ? 

A. Very slow. 

Q. Why do you do it slowly ? 

A. Well, to give the prisoner a chance to reflect — give him an op- 
portunity to stand the punishment. 

Q. Do you have any witnesses to your punishments ? 

A. Always. 

Q. Who? 

A. The officers that make the report. 

Q. Alone ? 

A. No; never, unless . 

Q. How many, I mean ? 

A. Two or three present. 

Q. By the Chairman : Does the prisoner ever wish to appeal from 
your decision in regard to punishment? 

A. Sometimes he has. 

Q. To whom does he wish to make the appeal ? 

A. Sometimes they want to appeal to the Warden, sometimes to 
the Board of Inspectors. 

Q. That is not common ? 

A. Not common; not oi\ce in six months. 

Q. You take the shirts off when you whip them ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Captain, it is stated that women are whipped here ; do you 
punish the women by whipping ? 

A. On some occasions I have. 

Q. I mean since that last investigation; I am not going behind 
that— since 1873 ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. For what kind of offenses ? 

A. Fighting, disobedience, generally refusing to obey the matron's 
orders. 

Q. Have you those punishments here recorded in this book ? 

A. Yes, sir; now may I speak one word here to this committtee ? 

Q. I want you to explain anything you desire to in connection 
with the question. 

A. There has not been exceeding a half dozen women punished 
in the last two years, and those were colored. 
Q. What were the offenses ? 



u 

A.- Refusing to obey the matron; refusing to do what she ordered 
them to do, simply a question who was to be master, they or the 
matron. 

Q. By the Chairman : The punishment was inflicted because they 
would not subscribe to the rules ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. McGinnis : I want to inquire how many different ones 
occurred in the last two years ? 

The Chairman : He says not over a half dozen. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Do you whip them as severely as you do the 
men? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Not as many strokes ? 

A. Not as slow laid on ; not as severe. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : What employment are they in ? Are they 
in any other employment ? 

A. Yes, sir ; they sew, make clothes for the male prisoners ; also do 
work on shoes for the contractors, whips, etc. — plait whips. 

Q. Well, are they as amenable to discipline as men ? How are 
they in that respect relatively to the men ? 

A. Oh, I think they are managed by the matron altogether, and I 
never hear anything from them unless she cannot get along with 
them herself, unless she complains to me that they don't obey her 
that don't occur very often. 

Q. You, from your long experience here a knowledge of the amen- 
ability to discipline of the male and female prisoners, relatively, 
ought to have ? 

A. I think that the female prisoners are not as amenable to the 
rules of the prison as the male prisoners. 

Q. More inclined to kick over the traces? 

A. I think so. 

Q. By the Chairman : Have you the utmost confidence in the 
judgment of the matron in regard to these female prisoners? 

A. Yes, sir ; I think the matron does not complain when she ought 
to frequently ; I think she is most too lenient. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Have they another mode of punishment in 
there ? 

A. Lock them up in the dungeon — the dark cell. 

[Mr. Buzzard appeared and took a seat with the committee.] 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : In applying discipline to the prisoners 
here, you, as an old prison manager, take into account something of the 
former life of the prisoner, so far as you know anything about it? In 
other words, you would not take a young boy who had just been brought 



15 

into prison, even if it was his second offense, and treat him as you would 
a hard old reprobate whom you knew here, merely as a matter of de- 
tention ? I ask that question, whether you would? 

A. No, sir ; I would not ; as I said before it is to know altogether 
to the end of the case and the prisoner — whether he is an old offender — 
whether it is first offense, or second or third offense. 

Q. You mean offense against the rules of the prison ? 

A. Yes, sir ; that is what I mean. 

Q. By Mr. Garver: Whipping is only used for a violation of 
certain rules, isn't it ? 

A. The whipping post is used to govern in cases where it becomes, 
necessary. 

Q. No set rules for which it is for ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Can you give us a copy of the inspector's- 
rules here for the goverment of the prison ? 

A. There it is right there, (indicating) in that frame there. 

The following are the rules referred to : 

RULES FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF CONVICTS. 

The first duty of the convict is obedience, and it will be for his in- 
terest to obey all rules. 

1 . All conversation between convicts, and familiarity between con- 
victs and guards, are strictly prohibited, and all unnecessary noise 
must be avoided. 

2. The convict must not speak to any visitors, or receive from or 
give to them anything whatever, without the permission of the Warden 
or Deputy Warden ; nor is permitted to speak to a fellow -convict. 

3. The convict must not leave his place of employment for any 
purpose whatever without permission of the officer m whose charge 
he may be. 

4. If sick or unable to work, he must make it known to his offi- 
cer, and act as he may direct; but he will not be permitted to lounge 
about the shops or yard. 

5. The convict must always approach an officer in a respectful 
manner, always touching his cap or forehead ; and must not gaze, 
motion or laugh at any person whatever. 

6. He must not have (without special permission) pen, ink, pencil, 
paper or knife, nor carry to the shops or yard any food, nor make any 
alteration in his clothing. 

7. He must be prompt in taking his place in the line, incline his 
face towards the officer, attend to and promptly obey his orders, and 



16 

aaot leave the line without permission. Prisoners passing through the 
yard must walk in file. 

8. On entering the cell, he must close the door. He must not 
spit upon the floor or walls of the cell, or upon the galley, nor upon the 
avenue room floor, nor mark, scratch, or in any manner deface his cell, 
or any article therein. He must keep in good order and clean the 
furniture of his cell, neither carrying anything out or in without per- 
mission ; nor rap upon the door or cell except in case of sickness or 
absolute necessity. 

9. At the ringing of the morning bell, he must turn out, dress, 
make up the bed neatly, and be ready for marching out. At the signal 
he must open the door, step out and stand erect until ordered to march. 

10. In chapel, strict and silent attention must be given to the 
services. 

11. Any convict who, under any pretext, or for any purpose, leaves 
his place of work without permission of the guard, the Warden or the 
Deputy Warden, or who is found loafing in any part of the peniten- 
tiary premises, when able to work, shall be deemed guilty of serious 
misconduct, and will be reported accordingly. The guards and foremen 
must keep the convicts at work during the full working hours each day, 
unless any of them shall have been excused from working by the War- 
den, the Deputy Warden or the Physician. 

12. Convicts found smoking, playing at games, talking in the 
dining-rooms, chapel or workshops, without permission, or calling and 
talking to each other in the cell-house, shall be severely punished. No 
convict will be permitted to talk to a fellow-convict. 

13. No convict will be allowed to approach nearer than two paces 
to an employe or guard before he makes his wants known, and touch- 
ing his hat as he approaches. 

Daniel H. McIntyre, Attorney-General,) 

John Walker, State Auditor, >• Inspectors. 

Phillip E. Chappell, State Treasurer, ) 

J. R. WILLIS, Warden Missouri State Penitentiary, 

Jeiferson City, Mo. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : When a prisoner enters here, do you make 
him acquainted with the rules — give him a copy? 

A. Yes, sir ; furnish him a copy; if he is not able to read get some 
one to read it to him. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : How are these rules distributed over the 
prison ? 

A. Placed in their cells. 

Q. By the Chairman: In every cell?. 

A. Yes, sir; in every cell in the prison. 



17 

Q. Mr. McGinnis : Workshops ? 

A. Yes, sir ; but the prisoners have no opportunity to read them 
in the workshops. 

Q. They are placed there ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. So that in a violation of these rules, if a prisoner is not able 
to read, he is informed of the rules ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By the Chairman : What is the name of one of your oldest 
guards here ? 

A. Well, we have several pretty old guards here. Mr. Shoup is 
one. 

Q. Has he ever made any complaints against prisoners by which 
they were punished ? 

A. Yes, sir ; Shoup and Brown and Crump, all three of those 
gentlemen have been here — very old guards — eight or ten or twelve 
years. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : When a prisoner violates some rule and he 
is to be whipped, do you fix the number of lashes before you whip him ? 

A. No, sir ; never ; may be I think I am going to whip him, and 
when I get him up before me I don't give him a lick; I have taken 
many a man, and have him stripped and set him down and did not in- 
tend to whip him, and I had to whip him before I got through with 
him. 

Q. Have you any means of fastening them so he cannot get away 
from you when you whip him ? 

A. Yes, sir ; in the first place, I strip him down to the waist of 
the pants, set him down on the floor with his feet in front ; set him 
down that way (indicating), and put a stick through here, (indicating), 
through the knees, if he is a bad fellow ; sometimes don't tie them at 
all ; set them down on the floor. 

Q. By the Chairman : You only tie those who are desperate 
men ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : And women the same way ? 

A. Never tie a woman. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : Have you whipped women? 

A. Some colored women; never whip them entirely bare; just 
whip them over the chemipe ; over the shoulder. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Now, when you take a prisoner out to whip 
him and he promises to obey the rule, do you suspend the whipping 
then? 

p r— 2 



18 

A. I do sometimes ; that depends somewhat on circumstances ; 
who the prisoner was ; some prisoners would promise me that every 
time, and violate the rule the next day. 

Q. I had reference more to those who are punished for the first 
offense ? 

A. I never whip a prisoner for the first offense. 

W. M. Todd, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : You are the yardmaster ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you state to the committee what you know of the prison 
mode of punishing criminals who are refractory about the punishment 
they get ? 

A. Sometimes lock them up in their cells ; keep them locked up 
in their cells sometimes for a few days and sometimes for months; 
some bad men — considered as bad men. 

Q. Go right ahead and tell. 

A. At other times use rawhide or cowhide. 

Q. Whipping ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Well, with your experience of prisoners, do you consider that 
mode of punishing in some cases necessary? 

A. The cowhide, you mean ? 

Q. I do. 

A. I do. 

Q. Do you know of any other mode of punishment that could take 
its place and be as effective ? 

A. I domt think I do, sir. 

Q. Have you ever seen men punished with the lash ? 

A. Yes, sir ; I have. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : Did you ever see them punished to the ex- 
tent of drawing blood ? 

A. Yes, sir ; I think so ; yes, in some cases. 

Q. About how niany lashes are usually applied ? 

A. Well, in the majority of times, from three to seven lashes; 
sometimes more than that. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : What is the greatest number of lashes that 
you know of being administered here ? 

The Chairman (to witness): Say since 1873. 

Witness : I don't really know ; forty or fifty lashes ; about forty, I 
think. 

Q. By the Chairman : That would be the greatest ? 

A. I think so. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : Is there any particular violation that comes 



19 

under the rule of punishment by the lash, or a punishment for any 
offense ? 

A. Well, some manner of offenses they don't. There are different 
things we punish them for with the lash. 

Q. Are there any other methods of punishment used here ? 

A. Yes ; there has been other methods used. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Are the prisoners afraid to make reports 
here against the officers ? 

A. I think not, sir. 

Q. Do they make their reports ? You know about the manner of 
making reports ? 

A. Any time any of them are imposed on, they make their 
reports. 

Q. Who do they report to chiefly ? Capt. Bradbury ? 

A. Capt. Bradbury or myself. 

Q. You are the next one in authority after Capt. Bradbury ? 

A. Yes, sir ; I don't think there is any man there who would be 
afraid to come to me and make a report. 

Q. By Mr. Garver: Have any prisoners ever made any com- 
plaints to you ? 

A. Several times ; sometimes the officers have been a little harsh 
to them in over-working them, and otherwise ; it is frequently the 
case. 

Q. By the Chairman : Do you know for a fact that they have 
been over- worked or mistreated ? 

A. I do not ; I pretty near satisfy myself by going through those 
works myself, and going through their cells in the afternoon, and know 
the work is light enough. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Has that bull-ring been used in latter 
years ? 

A. No, sir ; it has not. 

Q. How long since it was used ? 

A. I think likely five years ; I have no information of its being 
used for over five years. 

Q. How long have you been here ? 

A. I have been in since lb70. 

Q. By the Chairman : I suppose it has not been used since that 
investigation ? 

A. I don't know when it was used ; I know it is a long while ago 
since it was used. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : That was in 1870? 

A. I don't know ; it has been a good many years. 



20 

Q. By Mr. Garver : No one is allowed to strike a prisoner in ad- 
ministering punishment ? 

A. No one is allowed to touch them except Capt. Bradbury. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Do you state that no one administers any 
punishment to the prisoners except Capt. Bradbury ? 

A. That is the only one, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : How often have you known any one pris- 
oner punished with the lash ? 

A. Well, I don't — I think I have known prisoners to be punished > 
may be, two days in succession ; that is the question ? you mean how 
often ? 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : How frequently or how often ? 

A. There may be a few of them— I have known two days in suc- 
cession. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : How often during his time? 

A. Well, I don't know, really ; some of them pretty often ; there 
is but few of them who get punished. 

Q. The majority of men don't get punished at all — it is the bois- 
terous fellows ? 

A. I don't know how often during his term; very frequently > 
though, some of them. 

Q. Does this occur aim ost every day ? 

A. Well, yes; two or three licks sometimes. 

Q. Do they usually holler ? 

A. Some of them do, and sometimes they do not. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : How long is it since they quit using that 
flat piece of leather ? 

A. Some six or seven years ago ; I don't remember of its being 
used for six or seven years. 

Q. You remember of their using a flat piece of leather ? 

A. Yes ; some six or seven years ago. 

Q. And they always use the cowhide since ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

W. H. Bradbury (recalled). 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : What did you use before you used the 
cowhide in whipping ? 

A. Used a strap of leather about as wide as my three fingers or 
four, and a handle about sixteen or seventeen inches in length, a screw 
put in it and tied down here (indicating) and then tapering down to a 
point ; a piece of leather, generally harness leather. 

Q. What was the effect of that ? 

A. It generally raised a blister like from each stroke. 

Q. That was discountenanced by the committee before ? 



21 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you quit it ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And since then you have used the rawhide? 

A. The cowhide, yes, sir. 

Q. Whilst the rawhide might cut and draw blood, the strap 
might at the same stroke bruise and hurt the flesh ? 

A. Leave a more continued sore, which would last a great deal 
longer. 

Q. A great deal worse punishment ? 

A. Yes, sir ; the cowhide could simply make a little keen mark, 
and the other would bruise the place, leave a bruise that would stay a 
good deal longer, which would raise up and become ulcerated ; that is 
the reason that was set forth for abandoning the strap. 

Q. By the Chairman : Captain, are you a sworn officer under the 
law? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : What is the nature of the oath, or what is 
the oath? Do you recollect the substance of it ? 

A. I don't recollect it ; I have been sworn three times. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : That bull-ring, you say it has been discon- 
tinued for some years ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Since when ? 

A. It has not been used since 1874, since 1873 or 1874. 

Q. Since that committee reported on it ? 

A. I think it has been since that. 

Q. Certainly not since 1874? 

A. Certainly not since 1874. 

Q. Is the place there now ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Can you show the committee how it was used? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Can you tell the committee the relative severity of that pun- 
ishment compared with flogging ? 

A. Yes, sir, I can do it ; if I had you out there in the ring I could 
show you the position they are put in ; 1 could explain it more readily. 

Q. By Mr. Ewing : Captain, I'd like to know, in your opinion, 
what would be the effect on the labor of the prisoners upon the abolish- 
ment of whipping as a punishment for violation of rules, and for fail- 
ing to comply with their work ? 

A. Do you want to know what I think the difference in the work 
would be, the value of their labor ? 



22 

Q. Yes. 

A. Well, in my opinion, I don't think it would be worth as much: 
"by one-third ; if it was generally known in the Penitentiary to-day 
that any convict would not be whipped, I don't care who it is, I don't 
think their labor would be worth one-third. 

Q, By Mr. Anthony, of Nodaway : If that punis hment were 
abolished, is it not true that the willing would do harder labor, whereas, 
the recalcitrant and obstreperous would escape hard work ? 

A. Yes, sir ; that is true. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Have you ever employed, during your 
administration as the disciplinary officer of the prison, a system of re- 
wards as a means of incentive to a mere observance of the rules ? 

A. The Legislature has passed an act for that, giving them one- 
fourth off. 

Q. I mean, beside that, giving them so much every day ; giving, 
them so much money ? 

A. So much to do. 

Q. So much money ? 

A. No, sir. It is allowed to the contractor, and he gives them 
something. 

Q. I want to ask this question : Of course, as you never applied 
that system, you cannot answer as an expert, but what is your opinion 
as to how such a system would operate upon the convicts generally £ 
Suppose you iiad this sort of a system : that each convict was to receive 
so much per diem during good behavior, in money, put to his credit in 
the office, and when he misbehaved there should be deducted from 
that so much ; a sum gross for every misbehavior, what is your opinion 
as to the effect of a system of that kind as superseding the system of 
punishment upon prisoners — I mean of corporal punishment ? 

A. I don't think that would happen to have very little effect from 
this fact : Under the present rule of the management of the Peniten- 
tiary, the prisoners are all hired out to contractors. 

Q. I mean the effect on the prisoners. 

A. I understand that ; I don't think it would have any effect at all,, 
because the contractors give them over- work themselves, which would 
amount to about the same. 

Q. They don't cut off that over- work for misbehavior ; they don't 
cut off that over-pay ? 

A. Oh, yes, sir; they never fail to doit; if a man misbehaves, 
they don't give him any over- work to do ; a prisoner that don't be- 
have himself in the shop, they don't give him any over-work to do. 

Q. Which do you regard as the most effective as a disciplinary 
system ; the hope of reward or the fear of punishment ? 



23 

A. The fear of punishment. 

Q. Unmistakably ? 

A. Unmistakably. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Madison : Don't you find that the great 
majority of this worse class have no regard for money whatever ? 

A. No. sir. 

Q. Don't covet it ? 

A. Don't covet it. 

Q. Have no use for it ? 

A. Have no use for it. 

On motion, the committee adjourned to the place where is situated 
the " bull-ring ;" arrived there, Mr. Bradbury explained the manner 
in which that instrument of torture could be applied, after which 
the committee returned to the office of the Warden. 

Mrs. E. Sandford, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : What position do you occupy here, Mrs. 
Sandford ? 

A. Matron. 

Q. How long have you been engaged in that position ? 

A. Four years; well, I was here three years before that; in 1871 
I came and stayed until 1874. 

Q. And what department do you have charge of? 

A. The female department ; the cooking establishment, washing 
and the cell building. 

Q. Are the rules in that department the same as in force among 
the males — the rules of the prison ? 

A. I expect — not much. 

Q. Not so stringent ? 

A. No, sir ; not quite so stringent. 

Mr. Buzzard : You mean the printed rules ? 

The Chairman : The rules of the prison. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : The rules of the prison, are they the same 
in the female department as they are in the male department — the 
prison rules ? 

A. I think they are. 

Q. By the Chairman : Do you ever have occasion to punish pris- 
oners ? 

A. Occasionally. 

Q. What is your mode of punishing prisoners ? 

A. Having them locked up in a dark cell — " blind cell," as we call 
it — and having them fed on bred and water, until I think they are sufli- 



24 

ciently over it, and I think that is two or three days ; but of late, we 
don't put them there only over night. 

Q. Do you ever whip them ? 

A. We whip them occasionally ; Captain Bradbury does that ; I 
don't know how many lashes he generally inflicts as a rule ; I never 
witnessed that ; they are sent down and I don't know any mero about 
it until they come up, and I generally see that they go to their cell after 
that ; and as a general thing, it is done in the evening after tea. 

Q. Do they ever come back looking bad ? 

A. No, sir; I see to that myself; I have a trusty that I send 
around to see how they have been punished, or if their backs are sore, 
or anything like that, and I see to it and give them liniment ; upon 
one or two occasions, I have seen their skin a little broken. 

Q. Is this mode of whipping absolutely necessary, do you think ? 

A. For some of them, sir, absolutely necessary ; I believe they 
would not — we have to have that done as an example for the rest ; we 
have done so ; we scarcely ever do that now. 

Q. Do you think there is any other mode of punishment that can 
take the place of whipping ? 

A. Well, they would all rather be whipped than to go into that 
blind cell ; but I have known some of them to misbehave very much in 
order to get whipped and get out. 

Q. Then you know that they would rather be whipped ? 

A. Some of them ; yes, sir. 

Q. Some of them than to go into the blind cell ? 

A. Yes, sir ; they say they don't like to sit there ; it is dark — 
some to sit there, but I give them a blanket and a pillow, and a bucket 
of water. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Do they ever complain to you of the severity 
of the punishment, after being whipped ? 

A. I have never heard of them complaining at all ; but I have not 
the least doubt but what they do ; they make no complaint to me. 
They don't come to me, but I go to them sometimes ; I don't know 
how many lashes they get ; some don't get many I know ; some come 
back and I think they have not been whipped. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : What offenses do you have these women 
whipped for ? 

A. Well, for not obeying and not going to their work as they ought 
to go, and sometimes they refuse positively to work. 

Q. They have the rules there, have they ? 

A. The women? 

Q. Yes? 

A. No, sir; they have not. 



25 

Q. Haven't they the prison rules hanging up ? 

A. No, sir; they have not; we usually tell them what the rules 
are, but they have not. 

Q. You, as a matron, have not seen the rules of the prison ? 

A. No, sir ; but I know what they are. 

Q. You have not seen the rules of the prison ? 

A. No, sir ; they hang them up here in the office, but we have not 
them up there. 

Q. You have not seen them ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Then, of course, they have never seen them ; they don't know 
what to do, then? 

A. Yes, sir ; because I tell them. 

Q. But outside of that ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Their only law is your will about the matter ? 

A. I just tell them what to do. 

Q. And that is their law ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And if they violate it, you have them whipped ? 

A. Yes, sir ; and that is very seldom. 

Q. By the Chairman : What you tell them, is that the rule of the 
prison ? 

A. No, sir ; I generally know the rule ; I know what I ought to 
tell them ; I tell them what they have got to go and do. 

Q. You tell them nothing more than what is reasonable and prison 
rules ? 

A. No, sir ; nothing unreasonable at all ; I know the rule is, 
we have to treat them well and make them work, and there is never 
too much for them — never. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Do you recommend that they be whipped, 
or do you merely report the offense ? 

A. I sometimes recommend they be whipped, and at other times 
I report the offense, and Captain Bradbury decides what is to be done. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony, of Nodaway: Please state the character of 
work they are employed to do ? 

A. I have generally had two wash-women and ironers ; had two 
hall tenders — I have not them now, but that is what I used to have — 
and then I had two cooks, who keep everything in order in the dining 
room and kitchen, and the rest are all at work sewing shirts and pants. 

Q. By the Chairman : Prison wear ? 

A. Prison wear. 



26 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Will you state how you 
determine what prison work they are to do ? 

A. No, sir; I have nothing at all to do with that; there is a lady 
up stairs has that to do. 

Q. By the Chairman : You are frequently in the room where 
they are at work ? 

A. Yes, sir; occasionally in the room ; I really domt know how 
much she gets or anything about that at all. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : She fixes the task, does she ? 

A. I don't think she tasks ; we have so much time. 

Q. By the hour? 

A. From whistle to whistle, I think. 

Q. You don't work by the task, but by the hour ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You might state how many hours ? You stated from whistle 
to whistle ? 

A. They are working now from seven o'clock until twelve ; they 
have a recess between times. 

Q. By the Chairman : Between seven and twelve ? 

A. Yes, sir ; and then they have their dinner, and at one the 
whistle blows again for them to go to work, and then they have recess 
at three o'clock, and then the whistle blows again at half after five, 
and their meals are always ready just when the whistle blows : they 
are not badly treated, that we know. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : What is the name of that lady that you 
say has charge of the work department ? 

A. Mrs. Dunscombe. 

Q. Does she report to you about offenses by the women failing to 
work, or do you know of that yourself? 

A. I think she gets along in her department very well. 

Q. Does she report to you, or do you know the facts, that they 
don't work? 

A. She does not report to me; she has them put in the blind cell 
herself when they don't do right ; she does not report to me. 

Mrs. J. E. Dunscombe, being duly sworn, testified as follows: 

Q. By the Chairman : What position do you occupy in the 
prison, Mrs. Dunscombe ? 

A. I have charge of the sewing department, where we make 
clothing for the prison ; what we do for the contractors we do by task,, 
and the other work is not, unless we are rushed and I am scarce- 
handed. 

Q. Do you know the rules of the prison ? You have the rules of 
the prison ? 



27 

A. Yes, sir ; I have the rules. 

Q. Do you ever read these rules to the prisoners or tell them 
what they are ? 

A. I have them written and hung up in the sewing room on the 
wall ; I have them in my room where the prisoners are every day. 

Q. Do you ever find any difficulty in enforcing these rules ? 

A. Never ; the prisoners are generally obedient ; I never had any 
punished ; if I have any complaint to make, I make it to Mrs. Sand- 
ford ; I never have any punished myself ; I never see any punished. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard: Do you know of any of your prisoners be- 
ing whipped ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Since you have had charge of them ? 

A. I don't know of but one ; I complained of her, and she was pun- 
ished ? 

Q. By the Chairman : You complained to Mrs. Sandford? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard: When was that? How long since ? About 
when was it ? 

A. I think it was a year ago last summer. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Do you ever lock any of them up in the blind 
cell? 

A. No, sir; if anything has to be done, I report that to Mrs. 
Sandford ; she has charge of that. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Then, as I understand you, 
you know of but one punishment by whipping within two years ? 

A. That is all that I know of ; I don't know the extent of it, but 
I know it was not very severe. 

Q. What was the person, colored ? 

A. Colored. 

Q. What was the offense ? 

A. Disobeying to do the work that I had .assigned her to do. 

Q. Do you remember the work or the task you had assigned her 
which she refused to do ? 

A. The work that we were to do for a contractor — for Straus — 
braiding of whips, which she would not do. 

Q. Do you know why she refused to obey ? Do you know the 
cause of her refusal ? 

A. She got mad, I suppose, and did not want to work. 

Q. Well, I would like to know the extent of the task ; had she 
clone any work before she refused ? 

A. Did she do any work in the morning just before it began? I 
don't know whether she had done any or not. 



28 

Q. In the morning ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. She refused to work? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Ewing: Do you mean that she refused to work 
altogether or she would not do enough work ? 

It was not because she would not do enough work ; because if they 
refuse that way I would not have them punished that way ; it was 
because she would not work. 

Q. By the Chairman : Stubborn? 

A. Stubborn! Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : You say you have no printed rules in your 
department ? 

Q. By the Chairman : The prison rules? 

A. No ; not the prison rules ; rules in my department. 

Q. Are they similar to these (handing copy of prison rules to wit- 
ness) ? 

A. Yes ; only I wrote it myself; it was not exactly in such words 
as that; it only regards the sewing; I have nothing to do with the 
cells outside of the sewing room. 

Q. Nothing to do with the discipline ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : Has there been any white woman whipped ? 

A. No, sir ; not that I know of. 

Q. How long have you been here in the prison ? 

A. Three years and a half. 

Q. Do you or do you not think that there could be other punish- 
ments inflicted on the prisoners that would answer the purpose of 
whipping under any circumstances whatever ? 

A. I hardly think so ; the whipping that they get does not hurt 
them — I mean it is not brutal at all — and the few lashes that they get 
they dread more than anything else, as a child would dread to be 
whipped, and I think it is a great deal more brutal to lock them up in 
a cell and keep them there for days on bread and water perhaps, than 
it is to punish them that way ; none of the women that I know of, 
have ever been kept in the cells longer than three days, and then they 
have as much to eat of bread as they want, and often I know they get 
more than that through the other prisoners. 

Q. Then you think they dread the whip more than any other 
punishment ? 

A. Yes, it is natural, I think, yet I know that they have never been 
brutally punished in that way. 



29 

Q. Do you know of any of them being whipped until blood came 
out of their backs ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : You speak of your having knowledge of 
but one person who was whipped there ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you mean by that that you saw that one whipped ? 

A. No, sir ; I did not see it. 

Q. You have only complained of that one during the three and a 
half years you have been there ? 

A. Only to that extent ; there have been several that I put into 
the blind cell for a night at a time. 

Q. I mean whipping ? 

A. Only that one. 

Q. By Mr. Ewing : Had you any authority to punish at all, or 
whether you mean that you complained in this instance to Mrs. Sandford 
and she had them put in the blind cell ? 

A. When I first came here Mr. Willis told me when I had any 
complaints to make, to make them to Mrs. Sandford. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Who was that one ? 

A. Martha Basin ; that was for refusing to work ; that was the 
first time that she refused to work ; she had been in prison quite a. 
while ; four or five years ; she had been there when I came here ; she 
refused to work because she was subborn, I suppose ; she did not assign 
any reason ; she is one of those darkies that won't assign any reason at 
all ; she won't say she won't, when she will ; she has been at work all 
the time, and she never refused to work for me all the time, and I don't 
know that she refused for any one else ; I have very little trouble with 
them — very. 

J. B. Dawson, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : Mr. Dawson, will you state to the com- 
mittee what position you occupy here in the Penitentiary ? 

A. Foreman for Giesecke, Meysenburg & Company. 

Q. Are you brought in contact daily with the prisoners ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You are familiar with the general inside workings of the 
prison ? 

A. In our factory. 

Q. Are you familiar with the rules of the prison? 

A. As far as I am compelled to be ; that is, with regard to work- 
ing convicts, and as far as the rules come in contact with our work 
there, or a contract. 



30 

Q. Do you find the prisoners generally easy to manage? 

A. Well, as easy as any class of men ; I have never had any 
trouble with them. 

Q. Do you know of any ciicumstances where they refused to 
work and had to be punished ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What punishment do you know of being inflicted on such? 

A. They have, I believe, been whipped; I never saw any one 
whipped; heard of them being whipped ; our position is to give them 
instructions ; when the convict disobeys our orders, we have recourse 
to the guards ; simply report them for disobedience, or any thing of that 
kind, and then it goes into the hands of the Deputy Warden ; I believe 
he is the only one ; and we know nothing more about it, and we sup- 
pose that they have been whipped ; they generally do a good deal better- 
after coming back. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : You state that you reported them for bad 
conduct and for doing bad work? 

A. For refusing to work, and such things as that, yes. 

Q. Now, you take into consideration a man's ability to do work, 
do you ? 

A. Of course. 

Q. Because a man might do bad work and not mean to do it, not 
foe able to do the work any better for want of experience ? 

A. Yes, oh yes ; that is always taken into consideration. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard: Do you ever report a man for not knowing 
how to do work, for being bunglesome ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Awkward, for spoiling his work ? 

A. We generally report that to the Deputy Warden, and he finds 
other work for him ; if we get hold of a man that cannot learn the 
trade, then he is put at something else. 

Q. Do you find many of that class that you have to assign to 
other work, or report them for being incapable of doing the work as- 
signed them ? 

A. Occasionally ; not many ; they are never punished for any 
thing of that kind. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : About how bad does a fellow have to get 
down there about refusing to work before you report him? What does 
he do ? Just give us a sort of an insight into that thing ? 

A. For instance, if a man is working on some portion of a boot, 
he has some part to do ; you know the work is done in teams, and dis- 
tributed among a great many different men ; one boot will probably 
pass through fifty men's hands in a day ; one man is trimming a boot 



31 

and lie cuts it ; shows it to me, and you can always tell whether those 
things are done accidentally or on purpose, and it is a very easy matter 
to tell when a man is disposed to do what is right — and when he is, it 
is seldom that he gets punished ; I have never known a man to be pun- 
ished for doing anything accidentally ; I have been very careful not to 
report men, and sometimes when I should have reported them ; but it 
is a good idea to get along as well as you can, because you can get the 
good will of a man, and, I don't care whether he is a convict or any- 
thing else, get better work out of him ; in those cases of punishment, 
I think they. get about half what they deserve; I have had about 
eleven years 1 experience now with convicts, and I have never seen a 
convict get more than what he ought to have, because some of them 
are pretty hard fellows. 

Q. By the way, how long have you been here ? 
A. I have been here about two years. 

Q. Then you don't know the situation here formerly — in 1875 and 
1876? 

A. No, sir ; only what I heard; it is now about the same as when 
I came here; I don't see any difference. 

Q. How is the disciplinary management of this prison compared 
with other prisons you have been in ? 

A. I think it compares very favorably ; the discipline is not so 
severe as at Joliet and Waupon, Wisconsin. 

Q. When these prisoners return from the punishment, have they 
ever shown you their wounds, and bruises, and sores, and all that sort 
of thing, or complain to you that they have been cut to pieces ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. What is the relative sort of spirit among the prisoners ? you 
can tell by what you see ; I mean here as compared with other prisons ? 
Sometimes, for instance, I will say years ago, the prisoners would come 
out there, and every prisoner you saw looked as glum as a thunder- 
cloud ; they were all morose and gloomy, and finally became desperate 
and broke out in riot, and now you see going around among the pris- 
oners, there is a fair showing as a rule; show an open, happy counten- 
ance, as you would expect prisoners to show under such circumstances. 
Now you get my meaning ; what is the situation of the prisoners here, 
in that regard, as compared with the other prisoners where you have 
had experience ? 

A. It is entirely different; there the men are kept down so that 
they are not allowed to look up while at their work ; for instance, I 
have known men to be put in solitary there for raising their eyes to 
look at visitors while at work in the shop ; the guards would detect 
them and punish them immediately. 



32 

Q. What are the modes of punishment ? 

A. In Joliet, it used to be the shower bath, but they murdered two- 
or three convicts while I was there, and that was done away with — 
abolished — and since they adopted what is called the " dark cell" u sol- 
itary" and sand-bags, and the " bull-ring," what they style it ; they 
tie a man up to the wall with rings, his hands are pulled back and 
fastened to bolts in the wall, and if he is a very hard case, and they 
want to punish him very severely, they throw from fifty to one hundred 
pounds of sand over his back ; I have known that to be done there ; I 
have seen men to come out of there that they could about crawl, and 
that's all ; I have never seen any such punishment here ; and, with a 
ver}- few exceptions, I have never seen any of these convicts that man- 
ifested any bad spirit after they got a good licking. 

Q. By the Chairman: Do you consider whipping preferable to- 
that punishment ? 

A. I'd rather not answer that question. 

Q. By Mi*. McGinnis : At Waupon, what were the modes of pun- 
ishment? 

A . Well, it was a little more mild there than at Joliet ; it is simply 
a dark dungeon ; a man is reported for disobedience there or for dis- 
cipline, and he is taken to the dark cell and locked up ; they go away 
and leave him ; he gets a small piece of bread and a little pan of water 
for one day, and they leave him entirely to himself, and when he comes 
to his senses and says : " Here, I am ready to do what is fair now," 
they let him out ; but they keep him there until be does ; there, you . 
see, in that punishment, as in Joliet, the contractor, if his orders are 
coming in fast, he loses those men's work ; here, a man is taken from 
the shop and given what is thought best for him ; he is back on duty 
the next morning and at his work; the State does not lose anything: 
by him nor the contractor. 

Q Have you ever considered the effect of that kind of punish- 
ment upon the mind ? 

A. On some men I have ; I should think it would affect different 
men in different ways ; there are some men that can stand it pretty 
well, while there are others . 

Q. Of a nervous temperament ? 

A. Those are the men that don't get it; a man that behaves him- 
self, a man that is a man, or shows a disposition to be manly, he does- 
not get any of that; I have quite a number of convicts under me and 
I have never had any occasion to do anything of that kind ; they show 
a disposition to be quiet ; there are others that are ugly ; show a dis- 
position to stick a knife into you ; it does not hurt them a bit. 



33 

Q. I speak of the blind cell ; did you ever observe, or do you 
ever have any occasion to observe that those that have been confined 
in the blind cell 

A. Here? 

Q. Or elsewhere, what effect does it have on the mind ? 

A. I should think it would have a very bad effect on the mind, if 
•a man was kept there for any length of time. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : You think that the mode of punishment in 
the Missouri Penitentiary is more mild in form than in either the Illi- 
nois or Wisconsin Penitentiary ? 

A. Yes ; I think it is ; I don't believe there is a prisoner in here 
but what would say so ; we have a great many here that have been one 
and two terms in Joliet, and you will hear them all say, " this is a 
heaven to Joliet ;" that is the expression ; well, it is ; I tell you it is 
pretty severe there. 

Q. By Mr. Ewing : Are you employed here by the State or by 
the contractor ? 

A. By the contractor. 

Q. You have nothing to do with the State at all ? 

A. Nothing at all. 

Q. I'd like you to state what you consider the relative value of 
labor in the different penitentiaries under the different systems of pun- 
ishment ? 

A. Our tasks in our business here is just about the same as it is in 
those other prisons ; we employ the same machinery and manufacture 
the same kind of goods, and get out about the same quantity per man. 

Q. By the Chairman: Do you think the prisoners work more 
cheerful here than in those other prisons where you have been ? 

A. Yes ; I think they do. 

Q. They do the work more willingly ? 

A. Yes ; do the work more willingly. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Suppose no punishment was 
inflicted, that you depended on a system of rewards, what difference 
would that make in the labor of the convicts, in your estimation ? 

A. It would effect some, and some it would not. 

Q. Well, I will get you to state, if you know, is there not a class 
of prisoners that rewards would have no influence over at all, as to 
money ? 

A. Yes, sir ; plenty- of them ; we have them right in our shop 
there. 



p k- 



34 

Q. Have you ever had a sufficient number of facts presented to> 
you, to generalize the matter, to state what number would be in prison 
of that class that money has no influence over ? 

A. I think about two-thirds of them. 

Q. Well, now, as to that class, is it your observation that the only 
means of getting them to labor would be the fear of punishment? 

A. That's it. 

Q. And I understand you to say that the most adequate punish- 
ment is the whipping ? 

A. Well, you might infer from what I have said, yes ; there are- 
plenty of men that you can go to and say, " here, now, I want so much 
done to-day ; I want you to do this and that,' 1 and so on, and there's 
lots of men will do it because you ask them, for praise really, and there 
are other men will say, " I be damned if I do this ; it is no money in 
my pocket ;" and they will slash around and you will have to be very 
careful or get them whipped or punished. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Those you use by flattery you 
don't have them punished, do you ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Isn't it a fact that there is a remaining 
spark of self-respect in a man, that the love of approbation and the- 
hope of reward is superior to the fear of punishment ? 

A. Yes, where the man has really those faculties that you speak 
of. 

Q. You regard a man who would be governed more by the fear of" 
punishment than the hope of reward as being a sort of a desperado ? 

A. That's it. 

Q. A man having lost all regard for his fellows and all that sort 
of thing? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By the Chairman : And the majority of these convicts, from 
your evidence, I take it, are of that class ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Do you find that more among the old men 
or the young men — the hoodlums, as they call it ? 

A. Well, we don't have a great many old men in the Penitentiary; 
these cases are generally men of from 22 and 23 up to 30. 

Q. By the Chairman : Just in their prime ? 

A. Yes ; right in their prime ; we have one old man working for me ; 
he is as much of an old gentleman as you would find in any place ;. 
never have any trouble with him at all ; never has been reported for 
punishment ; he gets along nicely ; he is one of those men that you 



35 

would respect any place, no matter whether he had stripes on or not, 
still he has committed a crime. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : As I understand, there is al- 
ways a certain number who are backward, and who rather refuse to do 
their task or do it unwillingly, and that goes on until they have to be 
punished ; there is always something of that kind with a great many 
prisoners ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now, if the fear of punishment should be removed, would this 
class increase ? 

A. I think it would ; yes. 

Q. What effect would it have upon those who are a little more 
willing, and so on up ? 

A. It would influence them a little when they got out ; they 
would say, " I can do the same thing ; I can shirk this work ;" and it 
would gain an influence, of course, over others. 

Q. Removing punishment entirely, could discipline be main- 
tained ? 

A. I should want to hand in my resignation right off ; I would 
Bot want to be around because I tell you it would not be safe for a man 
to get along. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Are you the foreman of Giesecke's ? 

A. I am one of the foremen; he is superintendent himself ; Mr. 
Parker is his head foreman. 

Q. By Mr. Ewing : About how many men does Mr. Giesecke 
work? 

A. Something over two hundred. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : You say you work about 200, 
I believe ? 

A. Well, sometimes 200 ; a little below that. 

Q. I'd like to ask you now about how many of that 200 are pun- 
ished, say in a day or week, or month ? What is your recollection as to 
that ? 

A. Well— 

Q. About how often have you to report a prisoner for punishment 
out of the 200? 

A. There are — well, take half that number, that is, in the floor 
that I am occupied in. 

Q. One hundred ? 

A. I presume that it would not average one a day ; 1 don't think 
it would average one a day of the 100. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Are they always whipped when you report 
them? 



A. I think they are if they deserve it — if the charges are such that 
it is necessary to punish them. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : I understand you to say you report for in- 
fractions of duty about one a day? 
A. Yes. 

Q. But as to the results you know nothing ? 
A. No. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : They never question you as to what he has 
been doing more than the report you send in ? 

A. Oh, yes, certainly ; the officer that reports the man for punish- 
ment is questioned ; the evidence taken ; it goes to the guard, and the 
guard is supposed to know what this man is reported for, and he has 
got his eye on him and he probably has seen the whole transaction, 
and before the man is punished the guard also is examined. 

Q. Do you know of any guards having any particular animosity 
against prisoners that they would have them punished merely to gratify 
a spite ?. 

A. No, sir ; I never saw any of them ; that would be a very bad 
thing in an officer to have any such feeling as that ; he would not be a 
suitable man for the position, I should think ; I have never seen any- 
thing of that kind. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : About what per cent, of the prisoners, in 
your judgment, could not be reached by moral suasion, those refractory 
prisoners that refuse to work, disobey rules, etc. ? 

A. Well, the per centage, I think, is pretty small. 
The Chairman : He just stated that a while ago that two-thirds of 
them could not be reached. 

Witness : Yes, about two -thirds ; and then, I think, when you have 
sifted out that one-third, there is some that have to be licked once in a 
while. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : You have a system of monetary rewards in 
your shop, haven't you ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The man that does a certain amount of work, you pay him so 
much per diem or per week, how is that ? 

A. It is over- work ; a man has a task to do ; a great many of 
them, rapid workers, get through with their task quicker. 
Q. It is not a reward ? • 

A. Yes ; we have some few of them that have not a chance to do 
over- work, that Mr. Giesecke pays. 

Q. Do you ever pay a man that disobeys the rules ? Do you ever 
pay them 2 



37 

A. We have nothing to do with the punishment, that is out of 
our hands ; if a man does his work well, he can get all the work to do 
that he wants to. 

Q. Whether he disobeys the prison rules or not ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Then in this prison there is no such thing as compensation 
in money for well doing ? That is, a man getting an opportunity to 
make a little money if he behaves himself, and has that taken away if 
he don't behave himself? There is nothing of that sort here? 

A. Not that I know of. 

W. S. Crowley, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : Will you state to the Committee what your 
occupation is inside of the prison walls ? 

A. I am a boot and shoe cutter, and work for Cooper, Patterson 
& Company. 

Q. How long have you been in this prison ? 

A. I have been two years the 15th of February last. 

Q. Do you find any difficulty in getting work out of the prisoners 
that are under your care and charge ? 

A. I have not any prisoners under my care, really ; I have one, 
and that is about all ; in cutting I lay my work off, and this man does 
my marking, that's about all. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Have you any knowledge of the discipline 
of the prison here as compared with what it was formerly when you 
were here before ? 

A. I should judge it was better, much better, than it was when we 
were here before. 

Q. You have no direct charge or control of prisoners ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. No direct connection with them? 

A. Nothing more than as a cutter. 

Q. When were you here before ? 

A. I was under Fletcher's administration ; a part of Fletcher's 
antl a part of McClurg's. 

Q. You know when prisoners are reported for punishment, don't 
you? 4 

A. Yes ; in my room. 

Q. You knew when they were reported formerly when you were 
here, did you not ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What position did you occupy when you were here before? 

A. I had charge of the cutting department. 



38 

Q. The same as you are now ? 

A. No ; I am a cutter now ; I had whole charge of the cutting de- 
partment ; Mr. Adams was cutter. 

Q. What is your opinion about the discipline, good or bad, of the 
prison now, relatively to what it was when you were here under 
Fletcher's administration? 

A. It is much better ; it was not very good at that time, because 
that was one reason that this firm gave up the business ; Claflin & 
Allen gave it up ; went off; closed it up. 

Q. Could not compel the prisoners to work ? 

A. Well, the class of prisoners they had that time were bush- 
whackers and deserters on the plains gent in here ; could not get along 
with them. 

Q. Have you had any experience in any other prison besides the 
Mo. Penitentiary ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What prison ? 

A. The Indiana Penitentiary at Michigan City, Indiana. 

Q. Well, now, I will ask you the same question with regard to 
your experience in the prison in Indiana relative to this, as to the man- 
ner of working the prisoners, whether or not this compares favorably 
with the prison in Indiana ? 

A. Yes, sir ; better, much better ; men take hold of work better ; 
better life ; they have better spirit. 

Q. As to the amount of punishment, was it greater ' there, more 
frequent or less frequent ? 

A. It is more frequent there, there the moment a man is found 
guilty of anything, he is taken right out of the factory, punished and 
sent right back. 

Q. By the Chairman: What do they do with them? 

A. They whip them ; I have seen them come in there with the 
blood on their back. 

Q. In Indiana? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you ever seen that here ? • 

A. No, sir. 

In reply to Mr. McGinnis : They have more freedom here than they 
do there; I don't see that they have too much for the business ; I talk 
to the men ; there is nothing to prevent it. 

Q. Do they complain to you of any inhuman treatment of being 
whipped ? 

A. No ; this afternoon I asked one of them — about as hard a one 
as there is in there — and he said he would rather take a whipping than 



39 

this cell business ; I asked him right out ; I knew nothing about this at 
the time I asked him ; McCarthy is his name and he is a pretty hard man, 
too ; I am not in the employ of the State here ; I am entirely indepen- 
dent of the State. 

Q. It does not make any difference to you whether they whip or 
not except as it effects your business ? 

A. That is all, sir. 

Q. By the Chairman : Did you ever see a prisoner whipped 
here ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you know of any being whipped unmercifully ? 

A. No ; I have known them to come back after they were whipped 
next morning and say, " well, we got it last night, and we feel all right ;" 
and I must say that the prisoners speak very highly of Capt. Bradbury 
«ven after they were whipped ; say he is a good man ; I have known 
that a good many times while I have been here. 

Q. Mr. Crowley, do you think there could be any other punish- 
ment in place of whipping to be as effectual as whipping ? 

A. No, sir; I don't think there is ; I don't know of any. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Speaking of the punishment in the Indiana 
Penitentiary, you say you often saw them with blood on their backs, 
vas that on the bare backs or through their clothes ? 

A. Through their clothes ; through the shirt after they came in ; 
they take them right out and whip them and send them right back 
again. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Don't wait until night ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. So that they will have the humiliation before other prisoners 
"when they come in ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Ewing : Do you know whether they take their shirts 
•off in Indiana when they whip them ? 

A. Yes, sir ; take their shirts off. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Do you know the instrument they use to 
-whip 8 

A. I believe it was one of those old tugs — split harness.. 

Q. By the Chairman : About an inch and a half wide? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : How do the number of pun- 
ishments in the Missouri prison compare with the number in the Indi- 
ana prison ? 

A. They punish for slighter offenses in Indiana ; if they do any 
foad work at all, there is no righting up with their work; don't try 



40 

to fix it up ; here we fix work up and pass it off, pass it right through,, 
and it is better, much better ; if a man does a piece of work and it is 
not just right, we fix it up. 

Q. Then, if I understand you, the punishment here is both less 
frequent and less severe than the Indiana treatment? 

A. Yes, sir; much so. 

Q. Have you any acquaintance with any other mode of punish- 
ment than whipping and putting in the solitary ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Those are the only two methods you know of ? 

A. Yes, sir ; they have an artesian well in Indiana, where the pris- 
oners get fractious in their cells, that they drown them out, put the 
hose right on them and force them out. 

Q. In their cells ? 

A. In their cells ; I have seen that. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : That is where they become desperate ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway: Do you know of any very- 
cruel punishments ever having been inflicted in this prison ? 

A. No, sir. 

W. H. Bradbury, (recalled) : 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Do you know of any convict committing; 
suicide here last summer ? 

A. Yes, sir ; this last winter it occurred ; since Chistmas, 

Q. What was his name ? 

A. Stanton. 

Q. What were the circumstances ? 

A. Well, a day or two after Chistmas, I got information that there 
was a plot made by a lot of convicts to make their escape from the 
Penitentiary by over-powering the officers ; I examined some fifteen or 
twenty men in regard to that secretly in the evening myself; I found 
out that Stanton, in connection with a great many others, had entered' 
into a conspiracy of that kind ; the plan which they had got upon was: 
to over- power the officers and make their escape ; I locked those men 
up, one by one, as I got hold of sufficient evidence, as I supposed, in my 
own mind, Stanton being one of them ; when Stanton was taken out of 
his own room to be taken down and put in the " solitary," I sent a 
couple of officers to do it ; we were locking up several men at that 
time, I being in the hall myself; when he came out one of the officers- 
came to me and told me that Stanton, he supposed, had a knife up his 
sleeve and refused to give it up ; the cell door being open down below 
where he was going to be placed in, he was at some considerable dis- 



41 

tance ahead, and went and rushed into the cell ; he was in a perfect 
rage, mad and furious, using a great deal of bad language ; I walked 
up to the door and talked to him myself; he refused to come out, re- 
fused to give me a civil answer, all in a swearing and boisterous man- 
ner ; I saw that he was very much excited ; I locked up his door and 
went off and left him ; I went back and saw him the next day, and 
gave him some bread and water, talked to him, and he was not in much 
better condition than he was the day before ; I tell you all this to give 
you the history of it ; I let him stay there till the third day ; I then 
went to him and asked him if he was willing to give me up that knife 
that he had, and come out of his cell ? He said he would not do it ;, 
that he would die right there before he would come out. " Well, sir," 
said I, " that is just a question with you ;" said I, " you have got to 
come out of your cell ; I don't want to kill you in your cell, and don't 
intend to do it, but you have to get out of your cell and give up that 
knife." In the evening I notified two or three officers I was going 
down there to take Stanton out of his cell ; I was going to give him all 
the time that was necessary to reflect ; I went down and opened the 
door ; he rushed up to the door and drew his knife, and said he would 
kill any man that would put his head in the room ; I then prepared an 
iron rod with a hook on it ; I made it hot up to about four or five feet 
from the end, so that he could not catch hold of it, but the hook part of 
it was not hot ; I intended to get that hook around him and pull him 
out, so that he could not pull his knife ; when I done that, he raised up- 
his knife that way (indicating), and cut his jugular vein. 

Q. When you had the hook around him ? 

A. No ; we had the hook hooking at him, but we did not have it 
around him ; he cut the jugular vein on the right side ; he said to me, 
" there, now sir, the work is done," and came up to the door ; I pulled 
the door wide open, and said I, a give me that knife ; " he passed the 
knife to me and sank down and died in 25 or 30 minutes ; that is all 
there is about the case. 

Q. Had you whipped him before ? 

A. I had on one occasion about six or eight or ten months before 
that. 

Q. But not in connection with this matter? 

A. Not at all. 

Q. Had you given him any punishment in connection with the 
offense ? 

A. Nothing of the kind. 

Q. Just stubborn, recalcitrant ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where was he from ? 



42 

A. From St. Louis ; he came from St. Louis for burglary and lar- 
ceny for five years. 

Q. Age? 

A. About twenty-five years. 

Q. By Mr. Gar ver : White ? 

A. White ; yes sir ; of Irish descent. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Among the uncontrollable prisoners, those 
•who are difficult to control, what offenses rank highest ? You under- 
stand me, do you ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Those prisoners who are hard to govern, what is generally the 
highest crime they are charged with ? 

A. Generally burglary and larcenv, and they are generally 
thieves. 

Q. By Mr. Garver: You say those are the hardest to control? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Men who are in for " assault to kill ? " 

A. Easily controlled ; they have high tempers but we know that. 

Q. Never. have to whip them? 

A. Seldom have any trouble with them; once in a while ; but as 
a general case, never have any trouble with them ; they are easily con- 
trolled; what I want to say in connection with Stanton, to show you 
the character of the man, is this : He was reported one evening, re- 
ceived no punishment, simply a talk ; next morning he went into the 
shop and ran the foreman out of the shop with his knife ; tried to kill 
him ; then got up in the corner and refused to come out himself, still 
holding the knife in his hand, swearing he would kill anybody that 
came near him, and I forced him out of the shop under the muzzle of a 
pistol and succeeded in getting him in his cell and locking him up. 

Q. How long was that before his death ? 

A. Some six or eight months; he was punished for that offense ; 
he received a pretty severe punishment. 

Q. The record here shows that he tried to escape January, 1S80 ; 
was he the same man ? 

A. Yes, sir ; the same man. 

Q. What were the circumstances ? do you remember ? 

A. Trying to escape ; trying to cut the bars of his cell so as to get 
•out ; he did not succeed in getting out ; the guard caught him ; he was 
^cutting with a saw— sawing the bars. 

Q. He was punished for that, was he? 

A. Yes, sir ; 1 think he was ; it was a very slight punishment. 

Q. By the Chairman : Not whipping? 

A. Yes. 



43 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : You only gave him five stripes for trying 
to cut the bars and get away ? 

A. Yes, sir ; that was before this other thing took place. 

Q. Well, he was what you might call a very hard case ? 

A. Yes ; he was a pretty hard nut ; I have plenty more of them 
though, just as hard as him — plenty of them; we have a great many 
little things once in a while that the world does not know anything 
about. 

J. M. Kneisley, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : Your home is here in Jefferson City, is it, 
Mr. Kneisley? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you lived here in Jefferson ? 

A. Since 1857. 

Q. Are you now connected with the prison ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : How long since you ceased your connec- 
tion with the prison ? 

A. It is nearly four years, sir; four years next April. 

Q. Then you know nothing about the management of the prison 
at present ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Or the discipline of the prison ? 

A. No ; nothing at all. 

Q. You know nothing about the discipline under the present 
Warden ? 

A. I don't, sir. 

Mr. Buzzard moved to adjourn until 8 o'clock p. m., to meet at said 
hour at the rooms of the committee, No. 221 Brown's Row. Carried. 



221 Brown's Eow. 

Jefferson City, March 15, 1881. 
Ihe committee met pursuant to adjournment. 

Present: Messrs. Berryman, Chairman; McGinnis, Anthony of 
Nodaway, and Buzzard. 



44 

C. O. Adams, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q, By the Chairman : Mr. Adams, will you please state to the 
committee what position you occupy at the Penitentiary ? 

A. I am superintendent of Cooper, Patterson & Company's boot 
factory. 

Q. Do you employ convict labor ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many in your employ ? 

A. 135 men. 

Q. Do you find any trouble in managing these men ? 

A. Very little. 

Q. Is it necessary at times to punish any of them ? 

A. I think it is. 

Q. When you find a man who needs punishment, what do you do 
with him ? 

A. We report him to the guard ; the guard tells him to report to 
the blind cell at night. 

Q. Is there a guard continually in the room ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. More than one guard ? 

A. There is one guard generally for fifty men. 

Q. One guard to fifty men ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What offenses are those men guilty of that makes it necessary 
to report them for punishment ? 

A. Well, generally, their refusing to work, and it is our business 
to report them if they refuse to work at the task. 

Q. Is their task an exorbitant one, an extravagant one ? 

A. I don't consider it so. 

Q. Do the men, as a rule, find any trouble in finishing the task 
given them. 

A. No, sir. 

Q. How many hours do they work ? 

A. We don't require them, until after they get used to the work,, 
to do any particular task ; we let them work as they will until they 
get used to the work, and as they get used to it we require a little more r 
until they get full task ; that is, they don't get only about two-thirds of 
what an outside man would consider a day's work. 

Q. Have you ever seen any of these men punished? 

A. Yes, sir ; I have seen men punished. 

Q, At this Penitentiary ? 

A. Well, I have not been in the room when they were punished :. 
I have been in the building. 



45 

Q. Have you had any experience in other prisons besides this ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What other prison ? 

A. Baltimore Penitentiary ; Waupon, Wisconsin ; Joliet, Illinois. 

Q. How does the mode of punishment here compare with the 
modes of punishment in the prisons in which you have been em- 
ployed ? 

A. WpII, in the Baltimore prison the mode of punishment is 
whipping, the same as here, on the back; Joliet is confinement in sol- 
itary, and Waupon both. 

Q. Well, you, as a practical man then in prison labor, have your 
views as regards these several different modes of punishment, which do 
you consider the most effective ? 

A. Well, my opinion is that whipping is most effective ; I think 
it requires the least of that punishment of any. 

By Mr. McGinnis : You say in Waupon and Joliet they punish by 
Wind cell ? 

A. Yes, as far as I know ; I don't know any other. 

Q. You don't know anything about whipping there? 

A. No ; they have no whipping there ; that is, as far as I know. 

Q. How long since you were there ? 

A. I was in Waupon two years. 

Q. I mean in Joliet ? 

A. In Joliet ? Two years ago — three years ago. 

Q. Have you had any men complain to you here of unusual pun- 
ishment ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. . Do you talk with the prisoners ? Can you talk with them with- 
out any interference, or do you do so ? 

A. I talk with them on business, with regard to their work. 

Q.. Of course you don't allow them to make any complaints to 
you ? 

A. They could if they wished to. 

Q. But do they ? 

A. They have not made any complaints to me. 

Q. Not even those men whom you know have been punished? 

A. Well, they are generally very quiet after they are punished ; 
they never complain ; I never saw a man there yet punished without 
he deserved it; I never had any man complain to me. 

Q. By the Chairman : About how many are punished in the 
course of a month in your establishment ? 

A. Well, in some months not more than one or two ; there is 
very little punished in my shop at all, very little. 



46 

Q. And that not always by flogging, I reckon ? 

A. I don't know what the punishment is only by hearsay. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : The question is, properly, how many da 
you report ? do you report a man every day or two ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. You don't have occasion to ? 

A. No, sir; not once perhaps in a month. 

Q. And you don't know what becomes of it when it is reported ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. You report to the guard, and the guard reports somewhere else 
and you don't know what becomes of it? 

A. No, Sir. 

Q. They don't complain to you the next day, as I asked you awhile 
ago? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. By the Chairman : If you make a complaint this evening 
against a certain man, is that man back at his post the next morning ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And does his duty ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And does not show any sign of punishment ? 

A. Yes, sir ; I never saw any man that was punished that was not 
back at his task the next day and done his work better the next day ;. 
if a man was punished for not doing his task he is up the next day and 
does it willingly and has nothing to say. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway: You may state in relation to 
the punishment in the Missouri Penitentiary, whether it is more severe 
or less severe compared with the Baltimore, Joliet and Waupon pris- 
ons ? Which is the least severe ? 

A. In my opinion, as far as I know from what I can judge, it is 
less severe in this prison. 

Q. I would ask you the further question : What is the general con- 
duct of the prisoners in these several prisons as to their being satisfied 
or content with their confinement ? 

A. Well, as far as my experience goes, in this prison they are 
more content than any Penitentiary that I have been in — in this Peni- 
tentiary here. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : That depends largely upon the way they 
are treated, and fed, and clothed, I suppose ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : How does the labor performed compare 
with those other prisons that you referred to ? 



47 

A. The labor performed here is better, I think ; in my opinion,, 
more cheerful, as fir as my experience goes. 

Q. How about the quality and quantity of labor ? 

A. The quantity is better here than any Penitentiary I have been 
in. 

Q. How about the health and condition generally ? 

A. The health of the prisoners is better here than in the other 
prisons : the health of the prisoners is better ; they seem more cheerful 
and look better in every respect. 

Q. By the Chairman ; Mr. Adams, do you think Mr. Bradbury 
would punish a prisoner unnecessarily ? 

A. I don't ; no, sir. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Now, you are very well acquainted with 
Mr. Bradbury, being there and seeing him ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you regard him an unfeeling man, or is he a just man ? 

A. I regard him as a very just man. 

Q. That he would inquire into the charges ? 

A. Yes, sir ; I do ; I think the man, from my judgment of human 
nature, and my dealings with him, is a very just man — very. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Do you think, from your ex- 
perience in the several State's prisons, that corporal punishment could 
be abolished, and solitary confinement or any other means of punish- 
ment in lieu thereof substituted, beneficially to the prisoner ? 

A. I do not. 

Q. Don't think it would be to the benefit of the prisoner him- 
self? 

A. I don't think it would. 

Q. Now, then, I will ask you the further question : What is the 
effect of solitary confinement, where it is continued any length of time, 
on the mind of the prisoner ? 

A. I think it leads to make him worse ; makes him more vicious ; 
it affects the mind to keep him in solitary confinement; it takes 
the manhood all away from him ; it leaves the mind almost, you might 
say, imbecile. 

Q. You think of the two means of punishment, that the corporal 
punishment is more humane ? 

A. I do, sir. 

Q. By the Chairman: Do you know of any such unmerciful 
treatment ? 

A. I do not, sir. 



48 

John Bateman, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : What department are you in in the Peni- 
tentiary, Mr. Bateman ? 

A. I am in the shoe department — Mr. Giesecke's shop. 

Q. How long have you been there ? 

A. Going on six years. 

Q. How many prisoners do you work m that shop ? 

A. We work from ISO to 215; I have about one-fourth of them 
myself; I generally work from 40 to 60 men. 

Q. Do you find any trouble in getting the day's work out of these 
men ? 

A. I do not ; I get a larger task than any other foreman, I guess, 
in the pen. ; I get a larger task on the same kind of work that Mr. 
Adams has men working on, and I get two pair more of what we call 
"siding" boots than he does to the task ; I never had any trouble with 
my men. 

Q. Do you pay them for over- work ? 

A. Yes, sir ; but there are only a few there that do it ; there are 
only very few men under me that do over-work. 

Q. Why is it they don't do over- work ? 

A. Well, a great many of them prefer going to their cell when they 
are done. 

Q. They don't want to do it, then ? 

A. No. 

Q. Do any of them finish their tasks by two or three o'clock ? 

A. Yes ; a great many of them by one ; I have men there that 
work for me that do their task and get done some days by one and half- 
past, and go to their cell. 

Q. They could do a good deal more work then, in a day ? 

A. They could do more ; yes. 

Q. When you have a man that is contrary or disobedient, what do 
you do with him ? 

A. Well, I reason with him as much as possible ; I don't approve 
of reporting a man ; I found it the best plan to avoid whipping if possi- 
ble ; I very seldom report a man, unless I am compelled to ; I only re- 
ported three in a little over five years. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : On your floor? 

A. That is, under me. 

Q. Your own ? 

A. My own men, and I never had less than 40 and sometimes 60. 

Q. By the Chair: Does whipping generally cure their contrary 

dispositions ? 

A. Sometimes it does. 



49 

Q. Is there any other mode of punishment you think as effica- 
cious as whipping ? 

A. Well, that I don't know much about ; I never saw parties pun- 
ished in any other way but this. 

Q. You have seen parties whipped ? 

A. No, sir ; I never saw a party whipped ; only from hearsay ; as 
near as I have seen them whipped is, I saw them standing waiting to 
take their turn. 

Q. To your knowledge, have there ever been any prisoners abused 
-or unmercifully whipped? 

A. None that I know of; I have heard some of them speak— some 
prisoners speak about certain prisoners getting a terrible whipping, 
often times named the number of lashes that they would get, but that 
was all ; I have never heard any what we call "square" men speak 
.about it. 

Q. Have you had any experience in other prisons, besides the 
.Missouri Penitentiary ? 

A. Nothing only as a visitor ; I never worked in a prison until I 
came here ; I visited several of them, but never had no chance to learn 
much about them. 

Q. Who is it does the punishing at the Penitentiary ? 

A. Bradbury, the Deputy Warden. 

Q. No other man ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you consider him tyrannical ? 

A. No ; I do not ; I consider him very liberal; I know in a great 
many cases parties who have had charges preferred against them went 
there and he investigated them before he whipped them. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis: Is he a just man ? That's the question ? 

A. Yes ; sir, to the best of my knowledge, he is a just man. 

Mr. Anthony of Nodaway (to witness) : Please finish what you 
were saying in relation to charges. 

Witness : I say lots of times there have been charges preferred 
against prisoners that he would investigate before punishing them, that 
they would go up there on a charge and they would not get whipped ; 
he would not think the charges great enough against them. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Is Bradbury a passionate man? 

A. No ; I don't think so ; I think he is a very cool man. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : You find that under your mode 
of treatment but few punishments are necessary ? 

A. In my case. 

Q. Yes ; but you treat them as kindly as you can ? 

p r — 1 



50 

A. I do. 

Q. Now, under that treatment, do you find any punishments 
necessary ? 

A. Well, I never have any great work; I always get the work out 
of my men without any trouble whatever, with the exeption of one or 
two cases. 

Q. That is just the point I want to get at — whether punishment 
with that kind of treatment is necessary ? 

A. No ; I think not with me ; I get along well enough. 

Q. You seem to say there were some cases where you found it 
necessary ? 

A. Well, there were one or two cases where, in speaking with the 
men about the work, they cursed me right good ; of course, I reported 
them. 

Q. I will ask you further : Could the discipline of the Peniten- 
tiary be maintained without punishment ? 

A. No, sir; I don't think so ; I would quit there to-morrow if they 
took away the punishment; I would not stand it. 

Q. Do you think it would be prudent to abolish whipping ? 

A. No, sir ; I don't. 

Q. You seem to take the humane side of the whipping ; I want to- 
ask you in regard to that ? 

A. Well, I don't think a foreman would be safe in there without 
some punishment; of course, I don't wish to state what kind of pun- 
ishment they ought to inflict ; it don't make much difference to me ; I. 
am only there to get the work out ; I can get it out, so far as I am con- 
cerned, with any kind of punishment or without any ; but at the same- 
time I don't think a man would be safe among them without some 
check. 

Q. Has your observation about the dark cell been sufficiently ex- 
tensive to form an opinion as to whether it is an adequate punishment 
or a better punishment than corporal punishment ? 

A. I don't believe I ever saw the dark cell or know what it is r 
except from hearsay. 

Mr. McGinnis (to witness) : You go and get shut up there a few 
minutes. 

Witness : I know that those that do get shut up there do not pay 
any attention to it at all ; laugh it off. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : That is what I want to get at ; 
"whether that could be substituted in lieu of corporal punishment % 

A. I don't think so. 

Q. You don't think it would be an adequate remedy ? 

A. No, sir ; I don't. 



51 

Q. Now I will ask you this further question: If the fear of cor- 
poral punishment should be removed, what influence would it have on 
the discipline generally of the Penitentiary ? 

A. Well, I don't think that the men would care ; they would not 
do the work if it were not for this punishment. 

Q. Now, what men do you mean ? All of them or those desperate 
few? 

A. The majority of them. 

Q. Do you think it would spread through a wider circle until it 
went through the whole Penitentiary ? 

A. I do. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : And yet you, during your whole term, 
never reported but six men ? 

A. Three men. 

Q. During how long? 

A. Five years and six months. 

Q. You work 40 men a day ? 

A. I work 45 men a day ; some seasons I work 55 and 5f> ; dull 
seasons I run down to 40 ; I reported one for refusing to do his work 
rapidly ; I wanted to get better work than he was doing ; he was a 
colored boy ; he was in the habit of getting up every day and getting 
done his task and going in ; he was doing the work so poor that it 
would not do ; I spoke to him about it ; and it kept running on for four 
weeks, and finally I gave him a sample of what I wanted him to do ; he 
could do it reasonably ; he refused to do it and I reported him for that; 
since that time I had no trouble with him ; one of the other two men I 
spoke to him and he came right up to the desk where I was sitting ; he 
asked me if I expected him to do better work, and I told him I did, and 
he said I could go to hell ; that he would not do it; and I said all right to 
go right ahead, to go to work, and he kept there talking, and he then 

called me a s of a b ; I reported him for that, and the other case 

was similar to it. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : When a prisoner, any one of 
them, should talk to you or act in that manner, would it be safe for 
you to disregard his conduct and let him go unpunished ? 

A. No, sir; it has a bad effect on the rest, and there is no way to 
get the work out of them unless you do that ; I always resort to that 
when I find I cannot get it no other way, and I never had occasion to 
resort to it except those three cases. 

Q. I understand you to say they prefer, when they get their task 
performed, to go to their cell rather than go any further. 

A. The majority of them do ; yes. 



52 

Q. Is a moneyed consideration any inducement as a rule to that 
class of men to do more work, or do it better ? 

A. No, sir ; it has a bad effect. 

Q. Can you state why or how that is \ 

A. Well, they will rush over the work and slight it so it wont pass 
at all. 

Q. I will state the point that I want to drive at : Whether, as a rule, 
those men have any use or regard for money \ Whether it is of any 
value to them ? Whether there is any degree of providence about 
them that they care anything about money ? 

A. Well, no ; I don't think they do. 

Q. That is what I wanted to ascertain ? 

A. They all seem to have plenty of it as a general rule in there ; 
where they get it from I don't know ; several men in there have got a 
few hundred dollars ; there is all kinds of traffic going on among them. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard: Are there any other offenses that prisoners 
are punished for, or only refusing or failing to do their work \ 

A. Yes. 

Q. What are they, generally 1 

A. Well, for instance, they don't allow them talk in the line or 
speak to one another ; they have certain rules there, that each convict 
has to obey ; we have nothing to do in regard to what a man does out- 
side of his work ; we have no right to dictate to the prisoners at all, 
any more than to show them what work we want them to do. 

Q. Under your observation, that general observation, since you 
have been in business there, there are other things that they are pun- 
ished for i 

A. Oh, yes; there are rules there that if they violate they are 
punished for. 

Q. I suppose the punishment is more severe for the second, third, 
fourth or fifth offense than for the first, generally \ 

A. As a general thing, yes. 

Q. By the Chairman : Do you consider the rules of the prison 
severe or lenient ? 

A. I consider they are very lenient ; I visited a great many pris- 
ons throughout the countiy, and I never saw a place where they have 
as easy a time as they have here ; and to-day the soup over there, it is 
about as good as I can get in a hotel down here. 

Q. As you have been there for six years you can tell the difference 
whether or not the punishments are on the increase or decrease in 
number and severity \ 

A. Well, I think thev are on the decrease. 



53 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Were you ever present when Capt. Brad- 
bury examined any of the prisoners on charges that had been preferred 
by the guards ? 

A. No, sir'; I was never any closer to the examining room than my 
shop. 

Q. I am not asking you that ; I am asking you whether you heard 
him examine any prisoners who had been charged with violating the 
rules ? 

A. No, sir; there is one particular room where they examine 
them ; I have never been in there. 

C. A. Anthony, of Nodaway, appointed by the Chairman to inves- 
tigate the Prison Banishment Register, presented the following report : 

The record of punishment shows, in October, 1880, 39 punishments; 
number of stripes, 3 ; offense, impudence and laziness ; highest number 
of stripes, 32; offense, impudence and refusing to leave shop when 
ordered. Only two punishments during the month exceed 19 stripes. 
Punishments run 3, 6, 8, 10, 30, 10, 5, 10, 9 and 5 stripes, etc. I find that 
during that month the average number of prisoners was 1,256. 

Q. By the Chairman : Did you notice that the same prisoner had 
been punished more than once? 

A. 1 noticed in two cases that the same prisoner had been pun- 
ished more than once ; November, 1880, there were 33 punishments ; 
the lowest number of stripes, 3 ; the prisoner's name was William Bell ; 
offense, talking, bad conduct ; the greatest number of stripes was 25 ; 
Ben. Davison ; swearing, striking and threatening to kill foreman ; the 
next highest number of stripes was 20 ; offense, fighting in the shop ; 
the average number of prisoners during that month was 1,259. In De- 
cember, 1880, there were 28 punishments; lowest number of stripes, 3 ; 
offense, bad work ; highest number of stripes, 22 ; offense, fighting ; the 
average number of prisoners for that month was l,228f . 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : What was the consecutive run of punish- 
ments in that month ? 

A. The favored numbers were 3, 5, 7, 10 ; occasionally 19 ; once 
in a while a 15 ; and then when they would jump over that, there would 
be 20, 22, 25 and 30 ; the favored numbers were 35 and 7 ; I will state 
further, in this report, with my observation looking back from 1875 — 
and I took particular pains to notice it — that there was a diminution of 
punishment ; there seemed to be a gradual diminution of punishment 
right through ; I noticed away back there some of those fellows re- 
ceived 75 stripes. 



54 



On motion, the committee adjourned until to-morrow morning at 
eight o'clock, to meet at said hour in the office of the Warden of the 
Penitentiary. 



Office of Warded of Mo. Penitentiary. 

Wednesday, March 16, 1881. 
The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 

Present — Messrs. Berryman, chairman, Anthony of Nodaway and 
Buzzard. 

Willis B. Winston, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : What position do you occupy here, Doctor ? 

A. Physician and surgeon of the institution. 

Q. How long have you occupied that? 

A. Four years — four years on the 23d of last January. 

Q. Do you ever have any complaints made to you by convicts 
that they have been unmercifully whipped, or whipped at all ? , 

A. I have had complaints that they have been whipped, but not 
unmercifully whipped ; the complaint was not in the spirit of a com- 
plaint, but I have had one or two of them, for instance, come in and 
want to be excused from labor for some reason ; that they thought they 
were unable to perform it; and perhaps they would say having been 
unable to perform their task some time ago, they received punishment 
and they were fearful of receiving it again ; but not for the reason that 
they had been unduly or severely punished — nothing of that sort. 

Q. Have you ever had occasion to treat a patient on account of 
his back being lacerated by lashes ? 

A. No, sir ; I cannot call to mind any case ; well, I will say this 
in regard to that : no case of severe laceration or anything of the sort 
that I have ever had since I have been here. 

Q. You never had ? 

A. No, sir ; some person — I don't know whether it was from that 
or anything else — I might have had sore backs from some other cause ; 
they would come in there, and it might have been the work or some- 
thing of that sort ; but nothing of any laceration in complaint of the 
back; I never have seen any case since I have been in here of undue 



55 

ot severe laceration at all during four years ; never had to treat one ; 
nothing of the sort. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Have you ever been present 
.at any castigation ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Can it be known who the party is that's being whipped ? 

A. Yes ; since you have asked that question. 

Q. Just name one or two of them, if you remember? 

A. The facts you mean ? 

Q. Yes? 

A. One was named Killian, a white man; another one was 
inamed Kobertson, a darkey. 

Q. Do you know what the charges were against Killian ? 

A. Yes, sir ; attempting to escape by scaling the walls. 

Q. Do you know how many lashes he got ? 

A. Only two or three. 

Q. Who did the lashing? 

A. Capt. Bradbury; I would state this in regard to that, as it is 
a question that you thoroughly want to investigate, that Killian is a 
very frail and delicate man, and, as I say, I was present when they were 
castigating him, and found he could not stand the punishment, which 
was very apparent to Captain Bradbury, and after only inflicting 
one or two lashes he was released, when it was known that he could 
not bear any such punishment, when it was only one or two lashes he 
could stand, they released him — and that was a very grave charge. 

Q. You may state from your knowledge whether the temperament 
or condition of the man as to endur ability of punishment is taken 
into consideration in inflicting his punishment ? 

A. Yes, sir ; it is, and it is a matter that ought to be of course. 

Q. That is always taken into consideration ? 

A. That is always taken into consideration — what he is supposed 
to endure ; if he be a frail, delicate boy — young man — he may be a man 
to have, probably, for what we know, heart disease, the punishment is 
very light from the simple fact that we always run the risk of having 
some fatal result. 

Q. Has any one ever been injured by punishment ? 

A. I don't know. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : What is your opinion in regard to the modes 
of punishment in regard to permanently injuring a man's health, his 
mind, or anything of the kind ; the several modes of punishment — 
which is the most injurious ? 

A. Well, that is a question that is mooted very much indeed'. 

Q. I ask this question from the fact that you are a physician ? 



56 

A. I say they are trying, and even now, at the present day, in the 
different penal institutions the different modes of punishment, and so- 
far as the experience of officers here is concerned ; the mode adopted 
is by far the best and least injurious to the criminal — less so than con. 
finement and bread and water. 

Q. In your opinion, as a physician, corporal punishment is less 
injurious to the constitution and mind than other modes, such as blind, 
phsician ? 

A. I won't say that it is less injurious than other modes, because 
so far as my experience goes in four years, they have adopted solely 
the corporal punishment, and my knowledge is solely from the litera- 
ture that I can gather ; for instance, the shower bath ; Oapt. Bradbury 
who used it once here told me that he had permanently injured a pris- 
oner; didn't know but what he had killed him; that is one of the 
modes of punishment that is very disastrous, and it is very injurious in 
other instances. 

Q. What I had in my mind was the modes here — solitary con- 
finement, and the blind cells, etc. — what is your opinion as a 
physician ? 

A. I think the corporal punishment is less injurious ; now under- 
stand me thus: When you say "confinement," I don't mean con- 
finement for a week or confinement for may be a month ; but I have 
known men who were rebellious, who were confined in the cells here — 
they necessarily had to because they would not submit to the rules and 
regulations of the institution — and they were confined there for months, 
and when they came out of there, I tell you I am satisfied that their 
constitutions were more injured than any corporal punishment would 
injure them ; those are ^he only two modes of punishment I have seen 
inflicted here — solitary confinement and corporal punishment ; you may 
take a man and put him into a cell — you know the capacity of a cell 
because all of you have been in there — and feed him on bread and 
water, and keep him there for six months or longer; and without, &c. y 
which is conducive to health, and necessarily both his pysical and 
mental condition give way, whereas the ordinary man — you are speak- 
ing of the result of the lash of corporal punishment to the man whose 
sensibilities are somewhat blunted — it don't hurt him at all; it don't 
have any effect upon him whatever, in my opinion ; take the darkey, for 
instance, I don't think he minds lashing any more, that is, so for as his- 
health is concerned, than if it were not inflicted ; I don't think it affects- 
his constitution either pysically or mentally. 

Q. Do they have to resort to the solitary confinement at times,, 
after first inflicting a lash ? Do they resort to that as a last resort ? 

A. They have done so ; yes, sir ; but in very rare cases, and cases 



57 

that require a good deal of attention ; I don't know but one or two- 
since I have been here that required that confinement after being pun- 
ished. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Have you been present at any 
examinations where complaints have been made against a prisoner? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You may state the method of investigating the charges ? 

A. Well, you want me to state in the punishment room? Of 
course the charges began away back in the shop, or wherever the man 
comes from. 

Q. The mode of trial « 

A. The prisoner is brought into the punishment room and a guard 
is there to prefer the charges; they are listened to by the deputy 
warden, who, as I said, is both the judge and jury, and who inflicts the 
punishment, and the statement of the prisoner is taken also, and then 
in the judgment of the deputy warden he inflicts a punishment, if 
necessary. 

Q. By the Chairman : Do you consider the deputy warden a just 
man in his decisions ? 

A. Why, yes, sir; I do ; I think he is very just. 

Q. He is not inclined to be brutal, is he ? 

A. No ; not to my knowledge at all, during my presence in the 
punishment room ; he has been very considerate of the well-being of 
the convict ; considers his claims and prerogative to set them forth. 

[Mr. Garver appeared in the room and took a seat with the com- 
mittee.] 

W. B. Richardson, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Mr. Richardson, you may state 
what shop you are working in at present ? 

A. Number one shoe shop. 

Q. Who are the contractors ? 

A. A. Priesmeyer. 

Q. State how long you have been working there ? 

A. Have been working there sixteen months pretty near, lacking 
a few days. 

Q. What are they doing ? What is their branch of business ? 

A. Women's and children's shoes ; I work by the hour ; most of 
the men work at task. 

Q. State now, Mr. Richardson, whether there is any difficulty in 
the parties performing the task assigned to them ? 



58 

A. Well, I don't think there is any difficulty ; sometimes at their 
task they are indifferent, some are rather slow about it, but they all 
seem to get their task done on an average. 

Q. What I wanted to ask was, whether there was an unreasonable 
task assigned to you ? 

A. I don't think there is. 

Q. What has your treatment been ? 

A. My treatment has been first-rate ; I could not ask better. 

Q. Have you any cause of complaint? 

A. None in the world. 

Q. Do you know the methods of punishment in the Penitentiary ? 

A. Well, 1 know that there is whipping with cowhide, and such as 
wearing a ball and chain, and solitary confinement. I have never had 
a chance of going through any of it; but that is the supposition. 

Q. By the Chairman : If a man is a good man and attends to his 
duties, is he subjected to those punishments? 

A. I don't think he is ; I have been here sixteen months and I have 
not been ; I have not lived up to the discipline exactly, but then I have 
never been punished ; I don't think there is a man here that lives up to 
the mark. 

Q... By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Do you know — have you any 
reason or means of knowing — for what offenses punishments are meted 
out ? 

A. Well, I know some punishments are meted out for talking with- 
out permission, such as in the lines ; in the lines it is sure punishment 
to be caught talking in the ranks. 

Q. Another offense ? 

A. Then fighting, abusive language to* one another, tal king in the 
cells after raps ; after eight o'clock, I believe it is in this time of year, 
that is, in the evening, fighting, and — well, I don't know — everything is 
punished that's disorderly ; of course, there are exceptions ; men get 
off; I was caught talking once myself, and pleaded for mercy and got 
off. 

Q. Were you ever present at a trial ? 

A. I have. 

Q. You have been present, then, at a trial, when charges were 
preferred ? 

A. I was in the cell and two men had a quarrel, and I was the 
only witness, of course, and I was called out to tell what I knew about 
it before Capt. Bradbury ; I told him, and he decided in his mind ; he 
didn't junish either of them. 

Q. By the Chairman: Do you consider Capt. Bradbury a just 
man, a humane man ? 



59 

A. I think he is a just man ; the best judge of human nature I 
ever saw. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : You may state them — as I un- 
derstand the general fact is, you were present at least at one trial ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, state the manner in which the trial was conducted? 

A. Well, I stated about the quarrel ; the quarrel commenced at 
the cell ; there were three of us in the cell; I was called out — the other 
two men were the men that were quarreling — Mr. Bradbury 
€alled me out ; he asked me what the fuss was about ? I told him what 
the quarrel was about ; he tried to find out who was the beginner ; I 
told him who I thought commenced it ; and he asked me if there was 
any blows struck? I told him there was none ; and he asked me what 
was said, and I told him what was said ; and that is about all there was 
of it ; he seemed to consider things in his mind for a few moments, and 
then told me he was through with me. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Did he begin any inquiry of the parties that 
were fighting in regard to this ? 

A. I think he did ; I did not see them before him ; I think that he 
had both of them up before him. 

Q. He called them out of the cell ? 

A. I don't know whether he called them out of the cell, but he 
-called them out of the cell or out of the shop ; I don't know where he 
called them from ; they were before him, I think ; I did not see them 
before him. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : They told you that they were 
not punished. 

[Mr. McGinnis appeared in the room.] 

J. J. Mason, being duly sworn, testified as follows: 

Q. By the Chairman : What shop do you work in ? 

A. Giesecke, Meysenburg & Company's shoe shop ; I have been 
there some two years. 

Q. Do you work there by tasks or by the hour ? 

A. Some men. work by the task, some work all day ; I work all 
day. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : That is not the question. What do you 
do? 

A. I am a cutter ; I work at cutting ; it was my business outside. 

Q. By the Chairman : Are the tasks given to men large or within 
the bounds of reason ? 

A. Well, according to my knowledge of it, it is not an exorbitant 

task in any department of the shop, because a great many of them 



60 

can get their task done by noon, and the most of them by the middle 
of the afternoon, say by three o'clock or half past three o'clock. 

Q. Is there an inducement laid out by that firrr?,' a money induce- 
ment, for over- work ? 

A. I can say there is not ; it is about the closest firm in the 
place ; sometimes, at the rush of the season — there are seasons of the 
year when the work is more pushing than at other times, and they wish 
more work out than the ordinary routine get oat — then they pay them 
for over-work ; those who work all day, that are not on task, have no 
chance to make anything at all. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Then there is no regular rule giving com- 
pensation for over-work in that shop ? 

A. Not in that shop ; no, sir. 

Q. By the Chairman : What is the general treatment here of the 
prisoners ? 

A. As far as I know and am personally concerned, I could not 
say a word against it, in no way ; the officers have all been kind to me ; 
I never had a harsh word said to me since I came to the place. 

Q. In case a man is disorderly or disobeys the rules of the prison* 
is he punished ? 

A. He is certainly punished ; most assuredly. 

Q. What is the mode of punishment ? 

A. The lash ; and for very bad offenses, insubordination or insur- 
rection, or anything of that kind, they resort to what is called u the 
solitary." 

Q. Is the lash generally effective of bringing about good results ? 

A. I could not say anything about that; I never saw it; I never 
saw anything of that kind ; all I know about it is hearsay ; I never 
saw a man punished ; I hear a good many rumors about one or another 
being punished severely for offenses, but I never saw them. 

Q. If a man subscribes to the rules then he is not likely to be 
punished ? 

A. If he lives up to the rules he will not be punished, and they 
are not hard to live up to ; I don't consider the discipline strict at all * 
any man can live up to it if he has a mind to. 

Wm. Wyker : 

Q. By the Chairman : What department do you work in? 

A. I work at No. 7 shop, I believe they call it — that is, Cooper y 
Patterson & Company; I work at cutting; I have been here six years 
in June, the 21st of this coming June. 

Q. Do you work by tasks or by the day ? 

A. No, sir ; by the day ; from bell to bell. 



61 

Q. How many hours is that ? 

A. About 8 or 9 ; it is about 8-J now, I think. 

Q. Can they Accomplish the work that is^ given them during that 
time without a hardship on a man? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do the men generally perform their tasks pleasantly or grudg- 
ingly ? 

A. No, sir ; they generally work pleasantly in our shop. 

Q. Do you know any cases of insubordination occurring in the 
prison, or violation of the rules and regulations ? 

A. Well, yes, sir; I know of some. 

Q. They are punished for those violations, are they ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is the mode of punishment ? 

A. One man in a cell with me, his name is Preacher Thomas, he 
stole a lot of silk, 8 or 10 spools of silk were found in his box, and he 
got a whipping. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard: You have an experience here of six years, 
you say ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I want to ask you what your judgment is of the several modes 
of punishment ; which is the most injurious to the constitution and 
mind of the prisoner ? 

A. I think that solitary confinement is. 

Q. You think it is far more injurious than the whipping post, or 
the lash? 

A. Far more ; I think so ; it affects the mind. 

Q. You have seen a great many prisoners, no doubt, that have 
Leen punished in the blind cell ? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. And also those that have been whipped? 

A. Yes, sir ; I saw quite a number of both. 

Q. And that is your personal observation of that ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By the Chairman : You think whipping is preferable ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : If you knew of any case of brutality, would 
you be afraid to testify through fear of punishment ? 

A. Not at all. 

Frederick Biebusch, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 
Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Give your name ? 
A. Frederick Biebusch. 



62 

Q. What is your age ? 

A. My age is 55. % 

Q. What is the term for which you are here ? 

A. Ten years. 

Q. How many times have you been sentenced here ? 

A. The third time. 

Q. Do you know about the discipline of the prison ? or do you know 
anything about it relatively now to former times ? Do you know any- 
thing about it ? 

A. Well, I never paid any attention to it ; I always look out for 
myself and don't pay any attention. 

Q. Mr. Biebusch, we want to know the facts about the discipline 
of this prison; it ain't going to hurt you to tell the truth ? 

A. Well, I would not tell you anything else only the truth. 

Q. I know that, therefore I sent for you ; what is your opinion, or 
what do you know as a matter of fact about the discipline under this 
administration, relatively to the times you were here before ? 

A. Well, I don't see any difference now and what it was when I 
left here ; it is about the same ; about the same rules, and the same 
discipline, and the same people were here. 

Q. By the Chairman : The same warden ? 

A. Not the same warden, but the same deputy warden was here,, 
and also the yard master was here that is here now. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Can you tell us anything about the pun- 
ishments ? What they are ? 

A. Well, I never got puni shed ; never got offered to be punished,, 
and therefore I cannot tell you what mode of punishment they have. 

Q. What is the condition now of discipline in the Penitentiary, 
compared with what it was when you were here before ? 

A. What year do you mean ? 

Q. Anytime; relatively to the former times; what is the dis- 
cipline and its effectuality in keeping the men under control ? 

A. Well, the men are kept under pretty strict control now, and they 
were also when I left here ; I don't see any particular difference at all,, 
and as I told you before, I don't pay much attention to how they man- 
age things ; I attend to my own business and attend to it as close as I 
can, and get along right smooth; I have no trouble with anybody; 
when I left here the same people were here, with the exception of the 
Warden, and it was then just about as it is now ; I don't see no change. 
Q. Relatively to the former administrations, any time, how does 
this compare as a matter of discipline — the regulations and the control 
of the prison to-day — compare with the times you were here before? 



63 

How is the discipline to-day compared with former years when you 
were here ? 

A. Well, sir, I believe there ain't a particle of difference in 
the discipline and there ain't a different mode for the last ten years ; it 
is now what it was ten year ago ; I can't see any difference. 

Q. By the Chairman : As regards what you eat and wear, how 
does that compare with former years ? 

A. They have fared a great deal better here in former days than 
they do now, as far as eating is concerned ; the clothes is plenty and. 
sufficient ; under the lessees' times sometimes the diet was pretty slim, 
and so it is now ; last summer it was pretty rough. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Your food ? 

A. Yes, sir ; rougher than ere a time I saw it here ; during the 
lessees' time, men had more privileges than they have now ; but other- 
wise I don't see any difference ; clothing is plenty, and as far as the 
living is concerned, it is nothing to brag of. 

Q. By the Chairman : Such as it is, you get plenty of it ? 

A. Well, there is no vegetables. 

Q. Don't you get potatoes ? 

A. Sometimes — that is in hash, and sometimes we don't. 

C. A. Thompson, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : You reside here, Doctor ? 

A. Beside in Jefferson City, and have for 15 years past. 

Q. What is your age ? 

A. My age is 56. 

Q. How long have you practiced medicine ? 

A. 1 have practiced medicine since 1849. 

Q. Have you ever had any experience, as a physician in prisons ? 

A. I have, sir ; I was physician to the Missouri Penitentiary the 
greater portion of the time under Fletcher's administration, a part of 
McClurg's and a part of Brown's. 

Q. Are you conversant with the present management ? 

A. I am not from personal observation. 

Q. Do you know what modes of punishment are inflicted here 
upon refractory prisoners ? 

A. I only know from general report of late punishments ; I went 
out of this Penitentiary in January, 1873, I think. 

Q. What modes were in use when you were physician ? 

A. When I first came to the Penitentiary they had several modes 
of punishment ; one was confinement in a blind cell, and bucking and 
gaging, as it was called in the army, another was by the lash — 



64 

shipping, but confinement in the blind cell was the more usually re- 
sorted to at that time. 

Q. Of the three, Doctor, which do you consider the most effec- 
tive? 

A. Well, sir, if the committee will permit me, I will state my 
own views on that subject, and my views are the result of observation ; 
while a Penitentiary is managed on the principle that our penitentiaries 
are, where the labor is compulsory, some mode of compulsion must be 
resorted to; I regard that mode of punishment as the best that will 
compel obedience in the shortest period of time with the least possible 
injury to the man ; I have investigated the subject; I regard the pun- 
ishment in the blind cell as unnatural and destructive of the health of 
"the punished. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : And the intellect? 

A. And the intellect ; I think that it is in violation of all the laws 
of our being to shut a man up in darkness for any period of time ; the 
want of light, heat, oxygen, will so derange his nervous centres that he 
will become really unconscious of the subject or cause for which he is 
punished, and is, therefore, perfectly destructive purpose for which it 
is instituted, that mode of punishment; I early came to that conclu- 
sion, and was instrumental mainly, during my time, in abolishing con- 
finement to the blind cell not exceeding twenty-four hours ; I made an 
issue with the then Warden on the subject and appealed to the Inspec- 
tors, and had the blind cell practically abolished ; and the bucking and 
gagging is certainly attended with cruelty and debasement equal to any 
other mode of punishment; if it is practically carried out, it is very 
severe and even dangerous ; the question of punishing by water, which 
never has been in vogue here, by shower bath, I regard also as attended 
with unusual danger ; unfavorable conditions of the system at the time 
of punishment, a man under an excitement of anger, his system is in a 
bad condition to receive that kind of punishment, and I came to the 
oonclusion that while it was barbarous, perhaps cruel, inhuman, to 
whip a man, I came to the conclusion that while we had to compel 
labor and obedience, that the whipping was least destructive of the 
physical man and least detrimental to him ; if it be humane to whip at 
all, my observation was this : that during the period of five years that 
I was connected with the Penitentiary, not in one single instance was 
I called upon or compelled to excuse a man from work on account of 
being whipped ; whereas, I had protracted sickness and vital disease 
that was engendered by reason of the blind cell ; another mode of pun- 
ishment that I recommended, and it was at one time instituted here, I 
regard as very effectual ; I don't know whether they practice it now or 
not, and that was the ball and chain ; I recommended it to the Wardens 



65 

and Inspectors, as early as 1867, to resort to the ball and chain with 
- nable efforts at punishment, and not to whip a man severely and 
to put him upon the ball and chain ; my observation was that it was very 
rarely that a man would carry a ball and chain for a period of even a 
few weeks without making amends for his conduct, and asking them to 
be removed with promises of good behavior ; 1 had several instances of 

Q. By the Chairman : Is it kept on them night and day ? 

A. Night and day ; it is present with him sleeping, and waking, and 

j, and working : a man can sit down at his bench, work at his labor 

his -ail and chain without any hindrance at all; I made special 

ri myself to have the chain around the leg peeurliary padded 

not to irritate, an i if it did, change it to the opposite leg ; it was a 

mode of punishment I instituted myself, and Mr. Swift, and so did Mr. 

Dougherty, and so did Mr. Wilson continue it ; I don't know to what 

t they are using it now. 

Q. Then, Doctor, considering all these modes of punishment, do 
you give it as your candid belief that corporal punishment is the most 
effective ? 

A. You mean whip; iii . : 

Q, Whipping : 

A. I will state that my observation was that it was the least det- 
rimental to a man and. generally compelled immediate obedience; a 
man who is obstre] lequires punishment : the mode of punishment 

should be of such a character as to not take him away from his work ; he 
should be punished : it should be certain ; it should be with celerity, and 
he should be coin; ■_]. o return to his labor right from the word " go ! " 
Any punishment that deprives him of that is destructive of the ends 
for which* it was instituted:; my idea is that any system of compelled 
labor that does not concede to the convict a part of his honest earnings 
is destructive of good government; my view is that- the whole sys- 
tem of punishment in the United States and our Penitentiaries should be 
remodeled ; and I think that there is no incentive to good behavior 
hat of gain; and there is no incentive to reformation like that 
of gain ; I never knew a man while I was in the Penitentiary that 
required punishment or required to be reprimanded for anything 
during the time for which over- work was allowed ; I say I never knew 
a man who was enjoying the privileges of overwork that required 
punishment; all. after their task was done, the contractor paid them 
for what they could do ; my idea is that the system of Penitentiaries 
admits of being remodeled, so that when a man is brought to the Peni- 

p R— 5 



66 

tentiary sentenced for a period of time, that it should be the exact 
period of time — not a day less nor a day longer than that for which he 
is sentenced. 

Q. Wouldn't it likely follow that there would be instances where 
those convicts would slight their work ? 

A. I would have voluntary labor in the Penitentiary ; I would not 
have compulsory labor at all. 

Q. How would you arrive at this over-work that you would pay 
them for ? 

A. I would not have any over- work at all ; I would get rid of this 
contract system ; I would not have any man who had charge of the 
convict have any pecuniary interests in his labor at all, and if you don't 
work you can't eat ; the first school of a convict should be to teach him 
his duty here, the obligation he is under to the State, and then teach 
him what the State proposes to do for him ; they propose that if he is 
sentenced for three years they mean exactly three years ; that he shall 
have the facilities for profitable labor during that period of time, and 
that those that are over him have no interest in his time ; that a sched- 
ule of labor will be furnished him, and then shall be put at an appren- 
ticeship during a period of time, in which I would have the rules very 
stringent to teach him " as soon as you learn your trade, over and 
above the amount it takes to feed you, to clothe you, to care for you 
during your time, we will pay you the balance." 

Q. In this interim, suppose he is unruly, what then ? 

A. The question for him is to elect whether he will or will not 
work ; if he would not work, I would place him in solitary confinement, 
not blind cells, but solitary confinement, and beyond that I would not 
have cells at all, and they would volunteer ; I have never known an in- 
stance where a man was not willing to work, give him the* incentive 
to gain, and you have brought about a reformation that you would not 
get in any other way ; now, your man sentenced for two years, the first 
thing he learns is that if he behaves himself for eighteen months, when 
he escapes punishment, that he will be pardoned out, or may be par- 
doned out; he learns another thing, that whatever he earns he wont 
have any cent of it; he learns another thing, that when he is turned 
out of the Penitentiary he is turned out with a suit of clothes that is a 
badge of degradation that will lead him until he steals again ; there 
is no incentive to reformation ; I can give you instances ; I can in- 
stance a man here that came from the southwest, named Blair; it was 
his second term ; he entered in the middle of Brown's administration 
for the second term ; there had been a change in the officers here, and 
I was almost the only one of the old officers that had been here when 
he had been here before ; he worked in the saddle-tree shop ; he 



67 

was a smart, active fellow ; he was sentenced for two years ; when 
I first had an interview with him he said his purpose was not to give 
the officers any trouble, not to lead a troublesome life ; he said he had 
gone to his old place and they had that day offered him over-work ; h e 
served eighteen months and was pardoned out ; meanwhile my term 
had expired previous to that ; Blair came to see me with a new suit of 
clothes, and he had $118 that he had earned here in over-work ; on the 
streets of Jefferson no one recognized him as an ex-convict at all ; his 
behavior was good ; now, I think that you understand my views in ref- 
erence to that thing, that there should be instituted a mode by which 
the man can have a reasonable share of his earnings, and he would 
then go out into the world. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : In other words, your idea about this mat- 
ter is that a man's individuality, his faculty of individuality, should be 
appealed to rather than his fear of punishment ? 

A. Yes, sir; in other words, I would eliminate everything that is 
vindictive in a system of punishment, as far as possible, and I would 
get rid of punishing ; I say that I think I would have the labor vol- 
untary ; I think the State could afford it ; the number that would be 
in solitary confinement would be few in number ; I doubt whether 
there is a single man in this Penitentiary, unless it is some low, de- 
praved being, that would not voluntarily work. 

Q. By the Chairman : What would you do with that class ? 

A. Confine them'in solitary confinement ; reformation, morally, is 
utterly impossible under your present system of punishment. 

Q. The Chairman : Of course they are not sent here for to reform 
them.. 

Mr. McGinnis : What is the Penitentiary for ? 

The Chairman : To punish them for what they have done. 

Witness : There is where the error of the system is. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Your theory seems to be an 
abolition of the cell ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where would you sleep your prisoners ? 

A. To go a little more into detail, I would not build a cell at all. 

Q. Are you fashioning your theories on the Panopticon idea? 

A. No, sir; I have read it, though; instead of building cells, I 
would build them in large, free, well ventilated corridors or sleeping 
places, sufficiently large, and from the time the man entered the prison, 
until the time he went out, I would not have him, waking or sleeping, 
out from under the eye of his keeper. 

Q. That's the Bentham idea ? 

A. Pretty near it. 



68 

Q. Your discipline would be based upon a system of rewards? 

A. Only one system of rewards, and .that is the reward of the 
actual profits of his own labor. 

Q. Pecuniary reward ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that the matter of pecu- 
niary gain has but little influence on the majority of men you have in 
the Penitentiary ? 

A. No, sir ; it has never been decided ; as I stated a while ago, 
during the time that over-work was allowed here, I never knew a man 
that was allowed for over- work that was not an obedient man. 

Q. Is not improvidence a lead to crime? 

A. I think it has a tendency to crime ; I think that the tendency 
to crime is deeper than that, before we were born ; I regard criminals 
the creatures of an unfortunate condition of things, for which they are 
not responsible largely. 

Q. Then, so far as that is the case, they cannot be reformed ? 

A. Pretty nearly: I think that the tissues of the brain are sus- 
ceptible to healthy changes. 

Q. You start out with this proposition, that offering a man induce- 
ments by way of pecuniary gain, will better the discipline of the Peni- 
tentiary ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Therefore, you mean to adopt a system of rewards in lieu of 
punishments, as I understand you ? 

A. No, sir; I don't so state it at all ; I don't regard it as a reward 
that a man should have a reasonable share of the profits of his own 
labor ; it is his during the time that he is restrained from his depreda- 
tions upon society ; during the time he is confined within the Peniten- 
tiary, he should have the proceeds of his labor over and above that 
which keeps him ; he ought to keep himself outside of the Peniten- 
tiary ; he ought 'to learn that by honest labor he ought to support him- 
self ; he does that, and not only supports himself, but adds to it a great 
gain; gentlemen, you don't know what some of these men are earn- 
ing for those contractors ; there are some of them that are earning two 
and one-half and three dollars a day, while it only costs forty cents to 
keep them. 

Q. Then you want to preserve the individuality? 

A. As far as possible. 

Q. And yet you claim the right to compel him to pursue a certain 
course ? I don't see how you reconcile that ? 

A. Here is the idea: I don't regard the amount that a man can 
earn over that which can support him as any gratuity to him, nor as 



69 

any reward for good behavior, but as his honest right, which belongs to 
him because he earns it; the State should place him under the most 
favorable circumstances to earn what he can, and he should have all 
over and above what supports him; there would be the inducements to 
two things: to acquire the habits of an honest industry, which is the 
greatest safe-guard against crime, and the other to acquire an industry 
by which he can earn an honest livelihood. 

Jackson Callaway, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : What county are you from? 

A. Warrenton, Warren county. 

Q. How long have you been here ? 

A. Well, I am a little bothered about that; I never counted;.! 
am a little careless, and I never took any notice of the time ; I came 
on the IS th of December, 1ST 9. 

Q. What do you do here ? 

A. I am working in the tan-house ; hair hides in the tan-house ; 
in the first branch of the work. 

Q. How are you treated here, Jack? 

A. 1 \Ye]J 1 I suppose, gentlemen, I am treated well ; better tban I 
apprehended before coming here. 

Q. Do you get plenty to eat? 

A. I do. 

Q. Plenty of clothes to wear ? 

A. I do. 

Q. Good bed ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you ever get a task more than you can do during the day? 

A. Well, no ; if they gave me a fair show, I could do the task, 
but if they keep me knocking around, put me on it at half past eight, 
I can't get it, and I am about the fastest in the shop. 

Q. Suppose you fail : then, what? 

A. I never failed but once, and the foreman let me off then. 

Q. When prisoners are disobedient, what do they do with them ? 

A. Well, they generally flog them. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Those fellows who fail, what becomes of 
them ? 

A. They get punished; they go to the blind cell ; that is all I 
know; after that, I never ask whether they go before the captain or 
are turned loose. 

Q. By the Chairman: You have been flogged once ■ 

A. Yes, sir; but I have never been whipped for not getting a task. 

Q. What were you up for ? 



70 

A. I was charged once ; I don't know what I was charged with ; I 
don't know whether it was the foreman could not learn me the first 
branch, but I suppose it was; I was a little stiff in the left shoulder, 
and I am yet ; and he put me to flushing, which a man mustn't slight 
to do that, and I didn't do that, and he seemed to get against me very 
much; and I was only in the shop eight days, and he sent me up; but 
what charge he put against me, I don't know. 

Q. Did you get flogged that time ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many licks did you get ? 

A. I don't remember whether I got six or seven. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Who flogged you ? 

A. Captain Bradburry. 

Q. Did he tell you what he was flogging you for ? 

A. He did not. 

Q. Then you never knew why you were flogged ? 

A. No, sir ; I laid off to ask the guard what charge I was flogged 
upon, but I didn't that day, so I didn't ask him at all ; he would have 
told me, perhaps, if I had asked him ; I don't know what it was ; it was 
not for bad work ; I have never been up for bad work or for not getting 
the task ; it was eight days after I had been in the shop when he put 
me up ; I had been in the whip shop and got over task all the while, but 
being a stout hand onto my shoulder, they put me in the tan house' 
where they needed a strong man. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : When was it? 

A. The first time I was up ? 

Q. Yes? 

A. The 22d day of January, 1880. 

Mr. Anthony read from the punishment record that the number of 
stripes received by the witness on the 12th of January, 1880, was 12. 

Q. Do you consider the Deputy Warden a humane man or a hard- 
hearted man ; would he whip you unmercifully ? 

A. That is something, gentlemen, I can't say. 

Q. Did he do it at that time ? 

A. He whipped me, and he appeared to whip me as hard as he 
possibly could; in tact, he raised up and let down all his weight. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Didn't you deserve it? 

A. Well, I can't say that, gentlemen. 

Q. I insist upon my question ; didn't you deserve it ? 

A. I can't say that, whether I deserved it particularly or not, be- 
cause they thought so ; I hadn't been in the shop 18 days before I was 
put up. 

Q. Didn't you refuse to do what you were told to do ? 



71 

A. No, sir ; I never refused it ; I did all I could that day ; I done 
36 hides ; 35 was my task, and I done 36. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Is that the only time you were whipped ? 

A. No. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : What is the date of your next 
whipping? 

A. The 22d of August, I think. 

Q. That same year? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know what that was for ? 

A. That was for talking in the shop. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : How many stripes did you get then ? 

A. I could not tell you. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : How do you keep your time ? 

A. Well, I just remember it from my standing. 

Q. Did you get two whippings in August? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Were you quarrelling with Andy Stewart the day you were 
whipped ? 

A. Yes, sir ; and talking in the shop. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Do you think you deserved a whipping that 
day? 

A. According to the rules I deserved a whipping that day. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : You tried to Cut Stewart, didn't you ? 

A. No, sir ; he tried to cut me. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway: When were you punished 
again ? 

A. Is that two or three there (punishment register)? 

Q. That is two? 

A. I forget now what I was whipped for ; I was whipped another 
time. 

Q. Both of those times you got comparatively few stripes ? 

A. Yes, sir ; I never got off from the Captain yet. 

Q. By the Chairman : He did not whip you unmercifully ? 

A. Yes ; there was one time that he whipped me so that he made 
me sick. 

Q. That was the first time? 

A. No, it was not ; the first time it didn't make much effect, but 
the last time he whipped me I call it an unmerciful whipping, because 
it made me sick. 

Q. What had you been doing ? 

A. That day the task was 35, I think, and the foreman needed a 
few hides more than the task, and the head foreman, you can't get much 



72 

satisfaction out of him, especially men he don't like, and there were two 
or three men he didn't like, and he took them off the hides and put 
them to rousting and put me on the hides because I was fast and he 
wanted 48 hides ; 35 had been the task: we had just got a new fore- 
man; the head foreman hadn't come to me; when I done my 35 I 
knocked off. just as we gen -rally do ; the second foreman came to me — 
he was a new man ; he told me since it wasn't right ; he came to me 
and told me, " you go down and do them hides;" I said, iC I have done 
35 hides and there is 11 more there ; moreover. I am "willing jto do it 
provided you pay me for it ;" he says, t% that is what Frank -ays," and 
then he turns around to the other man that was flushing and he says to 
him, "if you flush those 11 hides I will give you 40 cents, and Cal- 
laway will hair them;'' and I said, "will you give me nothing?" says 
he, " no," and then I turned to the guard and said, " that's not fair that 
he pays Mitchell and does not pay me;" and he said *' go on, you have 
not done a task;" " well," I said, "don't you think he ought to pay 
me?" so he sent me me up for bad talk to the guard and to the fore- 
man. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : When was that ? 

A. It was in January. 

Q. What year ? 

A. This year ; the last time I was up. 

Q. By Mr. Garver: Who is this Frank you speak of? 

A. He is the head foreman ; the under-foreman is the one that I 
spoke to; I did not speak to the head foreman because he has nothing 
to say to me, and the head foreman never went to the guard when he 
spoke to me ; I was under the guard when I done what I did. 

L, K. Borcky, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : What shop are you working 
in, if any { 

A. Saddletree shop. 

Q. Who is the contractor ? 

A. Sullivan. 

Q. How long have you been working there ? 

A, A little over five months. 

Q. What part of the work do you do ? 

A. Shaving off the horns. 

Q. Is it a difficult work for you to do ? 

A. Yes ; I can't do it at all; I have been paying my task ; there 
is a fellow aside of me that can do pretty near two tasks and I pay him 
for working for me. 



73 

Q. Have you ever been punished for not doing your task ? 

A. Yes, sir; I have. 

Q. When? 

A. November. 

Q. How were you punished ? 

A. Whipped. 

Q. How much ? 

A. Ten. 

Q. By whom? ■ 

A. Bradbury. 

Q. You say it was November ; what date ? 

A. The tenth. 

Q. By Mr. Garver: Have you ever made complaint to the man- 
ager that you could not do your task ? 

A. I told the foreman that I did do all I could. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Did you ever call Oapt. Brad- 
bury's attention to that ? 

A. No ; but I was going to do it to-day ; call'his attention to it. 

Q. You have been in live months and never called his attention 
to it? 

A. A little over five months. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : When Bradbury whipped you didn't you 
tell him then that you could not help it ? 

A. I told the Captain when he took me into the office to whip me r 
I told him that I done all I could, and he said I would have to get used. 
to it. 

John Wilson, being duly sworn, testified at follows : 

Q. By the Chairman: How long have you been here ? 

A. I have been here six years. 

Q. Were you ever in prison before this time ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q, What is your occupation here now'? 

A. I am shop cleaner. 

Q. Whose shop ? 

A. In 5, over the dining room, 5 and 6. 

Q. That is Cooper, Patterson's ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That is a task, is it? You keep the shop clean \ 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is it more than you can do, generally, or do you have any 
trouble ? 

A. Well, it keeps me pretty busy; it is just as much as a man 
can do ; I am not very strong. 



74 

■Q. It keeps you moving all the time ? 

A. It keeps me moving all the time. 

Q. Do you get well fed ? Do you get plenty to eat and wear? 

A. We get plenty, such as it is. 

Q. What kind of beds have you got ? 

A. We can't expect much better, but then we have a straw bed. 

Q. You could not expect a feather bed? 

A. Certainly not. 

Q. Do you get plenty to cover you — blankets ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Are the rules pretty strict here ? 

A. Well, yes ; the rules are pretty strict here, as far as I have 
seen ; but I suppose if a man does right he can get along anywhere. 

Q. A man is not punished if he obeys the rules? 

A. No, sir; I don't suppose he is. 

Q. Did you ever disobey the rules ? 

A. I have. 

Q. Then you got punished, did you ? 

A. I got punished. 

Q. In what way ? 

A. I got licked with a rawhide here, which I never experienced 
before in my life. 

Q. Is that the way they generally punish ? 

A. That is the way they generally punish. 

Q. Did you ever see anybod} 7 punished ? 

A. You can't see it ; that is out of the question, because they take 
you in there by yourself, even if there were five or six to be punished, 
they only take you in there by yourself. 

Q. How many strokes did you get ? 

A. I got ten. 

Q. What had you done ? 

A. Fighting. 

Q. Well, then, you considered the punishment justified? 

A. I consider the punishment exactly just. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis: You are an Englishman? 

A. No, sir ; I was born and raised in this country ; I am a sailor, 
and sailed before the mast 17 years in the merchants' navy. 

Q. There is no flogging there ? 

A. Well, you have to be obedient there ; it's the same rules as any- 
where else; you are under a mate and under a captain; you can leave 
the ship when you get into port, and when you get into a foreign port 
you cannot leave her. 



75 

Q. Are the rules here any more stringent than they are on board 
ship ? 

A. Not as I can see. 

Q. Are they as stringent? 

A. Well, they are about as stringent. 

Q. Did you ever get flogged on ship ? 

A. I did when I was a boy ; I got a rope's end when I was a boy, 
from Philadelphia. 

Q. If it was not for the fact that you can go ashore when the ship 
touches port, wouldn't you about as soon be in the Penitentiary as be 
aboard a ship as a sailor before the mast ? 

A. That is a question. 

Q. Now, I am asking you as an expert? 

A. As a matter of course, I would not be in the Penitentiary if I 
could possibly avoid it. 

Q. Wouldn't you just as soon be in the Penitentiary, were it not 
for the fact that you could go ashore when the ship touches port, as far 
as the discipline is concerned, wouldn't you rather be here ? 

A. Well, no ; I would not. 

Q. By the Chairman : That is, if you could land and go ashore 
like you could on a ship ? 

A. I'd rather be here, then, certainly, under those circumstances; 
I'd rather be here, then. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard: That is, you mean to say that the work and 
the discipline is not any more severe than it is on ships ? 

A. No, sir; not at all. 

Q. By Mr. Garver: Have you been whipped more than once ? 

A. Yes, sir ; I was whipped twice. 

Q* What was the other offense ? 

A. That was fighting, both times; that was when I first came 
here ; I have not been whipped now in the last four years. 

Q. Do you think both punishments were just? 

A. They were both just, I think. 

Q. When you commit an offense, had you rather be whipped than 
be put in a blind cell ? 

A. I'd just as lief. 

Q. By the Chairman : If you had your choice, which would you 
take — whipping or the blind cell ? 

A. Well, I would take the whipping, I believe ; it would be over 
in a few minutes. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : Suppose you were put in a blind cell, and 
not know how long you would stay there? Did you know, when you 
were put there, how long you would stay there the first time? 



76 

A. I did not. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : Do you think this blind cell method of pun- 
ishment is injurious to the health of the prisoners \ 

A. Oh, no; not at all; I tell you one thing, gentlemen, an insti- 
tution like this can't be run without punishment ; that's what I've got 
to say about it; I am just as disciplined and as well raised as anybody, 
and I admit to it, and I was just as well satisfied when I done wrong 
and got punished, and 1 have not been punished now for four years. 

W. J. Bodinhammer, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis: Captain, you were in the Penitentiary 

before ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time ? 

A. September. 1873, I came here. 

Q. Up to what lime i 

A. Up to October, 1S75. 

Q. When were you sent here this time ? What time did you come 
here ? 

A. 28th of September. 1877. 

Q. You know the discipline now and you know what it was when 
you were here before ; can you tell this committee what it is to-day 
relatively to what it was when you were here before, the discipline of 
the prison, good or bad ? 

(No answer.) 

Q. By the Chairman : Is it about the same, better or worse? 

A. I dori't know ; I don't think of anything that I distinguish. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : If you don't like to answer the question, 
say so. 
' A. Well, I don't. 

Q. I'd like you to tell this committee, without fear or favor, about 
the relative discipline of the prison to-day and when you were here 
before ? 

A. I don't recognize any difference; the same mode of discipline 
prevails now that did then ; the same mode of management in securing 
discipline; I don't know that I have remarked any difference or dis- 
tinction ; of course, there were incidents that occurred then, perhaps, 
that might be regarded as different, but as a general thing, it appears 
to me, as I remember, about the same during all the time that I have 
been here. 

Q. Well, captain, about whipping; do you know anything about 
it here in the prison now ? 

A. Nothing that I witnessed. 



77 

Q. By the Chairman : With your knowledge of men here in 
prison, do you think there is any other mode of punishment as effec- 
tive upon a certain class as the whipping ? 

A. I think that nothing could be as little conducive to discipline 
as whipping — that is. immediately ; there are some men you could sub- 
ject by whipping, that, perhaps, you could not do otherwise immedi- 
ately ; but certainly my observation convinced me that men are bru- 
talized by it, I see it, and there is a kind of brutish, sullen submission 
resulting from it, but there is no cheerful response, no cheerful en- 
deavor to observe discipline and conduct themse.ves better. 

Q. Ain't there a class of low-down fellows in the prison that you 
cannot reach by milder treatment? 

A. I noticed that and observed it always ; I never saw a man so 
brutalized yet but what there was some way : but what you could reach 
him; you could do it; a cheerful desire to comply with discipline with 
the : are punished and the offenses committed justify this punish- 

ment ; I have observed in all cases, that in the heat of passion the act 
is committed and regretted as soon as committed ; then those punished 
fellows that promise this sullen, obstinate resistance in their minds that 
makes such men worse, until finally it has got to be the same as a child ; 
they come in and say, w * I got my dose," and it is gone ; it seems to be 
hem that it don't carry any idea of degradation. 

Q. Isn't there a class that you cannot degrade? they are already 
down ; such a man as the man that will rape, and burn your house 
over 3 our head ? 

A. I think every man is subject to the influence of better ideas, 
if you reach them ; I never saw any yet ; it is d\fncult to reach them, 
and a man that commits an offense that looks bad, that looks blackest 
— such an offense as rape that outrages all of our better feelings — still 
I find in that man somewhere there is a better feeling if you will reach 
it; outside of that, of course, it is a difficult thing; it is easier for a 
lather to sit down and whip his children into obedience, but I think 
there is a. better mode of governing them— thro u . ; and I 

say the same way with those ru'isoners ; it is easier to govern th 
with violence than with kindness and suasion ; but it takes men of in- 
telligence to govern them the other way. 

• Q. By Mr. Garver: With your experience, do you believe that 
the discipline of the Penitentiary could be maintained without wl 
ping ? 

A. I do ; but there has got to be a comprehensive plan ; you have 
got to overhaul the whole system ; such as working the men ; giving 
them an incentive to work; there is no incentive, no reward, except do 
just as little as yon can ; it is like this: the man that works freer is 



78 

like a free horse, he is rode harder, that is all ; that is the only reward 
there is no reward for industry. 

Q. Which do you think the more cruel — to put a man in the blind 
cell or to whip him ? 

A. Well, as far as the question of physical punishment is con- 
cerned, it is much worse to put him in the blind cell ? 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : In looking back a little farther 
in this investigation, your thought is, that if a man were under- 
stood, this punishment would be unnecessary ? 

A. I do. 

A. Looking back a little farther, you think that a great many of 
the crimes committed now-a-days are on account of society ? 

A. I say on account of society primarily. 

Q. Society is responsible rather than the individual ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And, therefore, to conclude the argument, crime is a species 
of accident ?. 

A. Accident is too narrow for it. 

Q. Generalize it a little farther ? 

A. A mistake in the training of the individual ; say, for instance, 
I am trained up from boyhood to think that wealth represents every- 
thing that is desirable ; if I want to educate myself, if I want to rise 
to honor, I must have wealth ; striving for that, I get a single idea, and 
I lose sight, finally, of everything else and pursue the wealth ; all this 
time, however, I am strictly honest ; I'd sacrifice my right hand before 
I'd do wrong; but I am led on with this single idea; to obtain honor, 
I must obtain wealth ; society tells me so ; but I come finally to where 
I am going to lose my object, or I must take advantage of some wrong ; 
that one, single idea has got such control of my nature, I cannot resist 
it ; I would rather die than fail ; I commit a wrong, a crime against 
society ; commit embezzlement ; no matter what the crime is ; it is not 
an accident, but it is the wrong thing in society to educate the children 
that wealth is the first thing to attain ; it is not an accident ; it is a 
mistake in training. 

Francis Macking, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. By the Chairman : Mr. Macking, you are foreman here ? 

A. Yes, sir ; in Mr. Straus' establishment. 

Q. In what depaitment there ? 

A. The tannery. 

Q. In what way do you get the work done — task work ? 

A. Some day's work, some task work. 



79 

Q. When they finish their task, do they quit and go to the cell, or 
do you pay them for any extra work they do ? 

A. When we give them over- work, we pay them ; when they get 
through their task they go in. 

Q. What is this — finishing hides ? 

A. Yes, sir ; we finish harness leather, collar leather, whip leath- 
er, etc. 

Q. What do you consider a day's work for a man in taking hair 
from the hides ? 

A. That depends altogether on how the hides are haired ; if they 
unhair easy, a man can do more of them than he can if they unhair 
hard. 

Q. About how many hides do you think a man could do ? 

A. Regular sized hides ? There are some hides, you know, larger 
than others. 

Q. Take the regular run. 

A. Well, he would be able to do very easy thirty-five. 

Q. Take them as a rule, big and little ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is " flushing " another mode of handling them ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many hides could a man flush in a day ? 

A. Just the same as the other ; if they were large hides, he would 
do two small hides while he would be doing one large one. 

Q. Do you ever give a man as high as forty to flush ? 

A. Yes, sir ; sometimes we do. 

Q. Fifty? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Forty-five ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. In other words, you don't give a man any more than he can do 
easily ? 

A. We ask them to do work fairly. 

Q. Do you ever have any trouble with them ? 

A. Well, no ; we have a good lot of men there, and get along 
there easily. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : I wish to ask you, if at any 
time you asked or demanded of your hands to do more than a reason- 
able task during the day ? 

A. No, sir ; never. 

Q. Do you know of any time of Jack Callaway having been whip- 
ped for failure to do work ? 



so . 

A. I know of him being reported: lie is not under my charge 
now. 

Q. Sometime ago lie was under your charge, wasn't he? Do yon 
know what he was reported for ( 

A. No; I don't. 

Q. By the Chairman : "Who was he under ? 

A. He is under Mr. Bippelmeyer. 

Q. Who was he under when he was reported ? 

A. He has been reported several times lately. 

Q. Is he a good hand or bad? 

A. He is a good hand if he wants to do it ; sometimes if he wants 
to get out of it, he wont do so. 

Q. By Mr. Garver: Have you any antipathy against any of them ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodawy : Do you know the time referred 
to? 

A. No, not exactly ; I don't : but this other man that came in 
here he is a strong man, and whenever we get one of those they take the 
advantage of him, because he is not acquainted with the rules, and 
things like th 

Q. Who takes advantage? 

A. The convicts; and for a time, few weeks, and perhaps a month, 
there does be a good deal of trouble with some of them ; there is some 
of them if there is any little point they are going to get away with, 
they are going to do it. 

Q. Is this Callaway a willing hand ? 

A. He is a good worker if he has a mind to do it. 

Q. What do you mean by " if he has a mind to do it?" Does he 
take the u sulks," or what? 

A. I don't really know what's the matter with him sometimes; I 
don't really know what's the reason he don't do it ; nothing more than 
if he finds he can get along without doing it, he don't do it. 

Q. You say you never asked the prisoners anything more than a 
very reasonable task ? 

A. I never ask them nothing more than what they can reasonably 
do, if they like. 

Q. Has that ever been asked ? 

A. Not to my knowledge. 

Q. Did you ever at any time promise any of the hands that if 
they would do anything more, you would pay them for what they did, 
and demand of another to do the same thing without extra pay ? 

A. No ; sir ; if the men do their task, if we have over-work for 
them to do after that, we give it to them ; if not, we let them go in. 



81 

Bradbury (recalled) : 

Q. By the Chairman: I just want to ask you about your plan of 
tasks among the prisoners ? How is it governed ? Or, who governs 
it? 

A. I do. 

Q. Explain it to us, please ? 

A. In the spring of the year, when the day's get long, the differ- 
ent classes of work is submitted to me to examine them and sign it ; 
they are then stuck up at the different teams where they work ; so 
many pairs of shoes to be pegged, or so many shoes to be trimmed, or 
so many hides to be haired, etc., and they are all submitted to me in 
every department. 

Q. How do you come to the knowledge of what each man can do, 
or ought to do ? 

A. From year to year seeing it done. 

Q. Simply your experience ? 

A. Yes, sir ; and seeing the men what time of day they get 
through their work. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : Have you ever compared the schedule here 
with the schedule of other similar institutions with regard to task ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Do you know to a certainty 
that these parties employing these men don't work them beyond the 
amount that you assign ? 

A. Oh, I know that, ft sir ; that is positive. 

Q. You know that to a certainty ? 

A. I know that to a certainty, because I get that from this fact : 
The guard in the shop would report that thing to me ; if he did not, the 
convicts would inform me, because the prisoners would not stand that 
without complaining to me. 

Q. By Mr. McGinnis : What means have the prisoners of com- 
plaining to you outside of the guards ? 

A. They have opportunities every day ; get a pass from the guard 
from their shop to come to my office and see me at any time they want 
to. 

Q. Ihe don't tell the guard what they want ? 

A. No, sir ; the guard has this instruction from me : " Whenever a 
prisoner wants to see me on any business whatever, it matters not what 
it is, you give him a pass to come to me ;" they all do that ; get written 
permission to come up to my place of business ; I don't allow them to talk 
to me when passing through the workshops, from the fact that they would 

PR— 6 



annoy me a great deal ; and I could not attend to their wants there 
either ; but any of them has the privilege and the right, and it is al- 
ways assigned them to go and see me every time without letting the 
guard know what they want ; that occurs everyday in the week ; some 
prisoner comes to see me on some business of his own of some kind. 

Q. And sometimes to complain against the guard ? 

A. Sometimes to complain, sometimes for favors, etc. 

Q. By Mr. Anthony of Nodaway : Have you ever punished a 
man without notifying him or giving him to understand the purpose or 
cause of the punishment ? 

A. Never; I have the charges read right in his presence — read 
right there. 

Q. By Mr. Buzzard : The charges are read to him before you 
punish him ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Signed by the party who accuses ? 

A. Signed by the party who accuses. 

Q. By Mr. Garver : In assigning tasks, do you take into consid- 
eration the fact that some men cannot handle tools like others, and 
consequently they are not able to perform the task that other men who 
can handle tools can ? 

A. We take into consideration this, in regard to that : You can go 
into any department in the Penitentiary ; there is not a man that is 
there .that has task, but what there is some experts among them that 
can get done by twelve and one o'clock ; I aim to task the whole shop 
so that any man can perform it during the day ; of course there will be 
some men there that will accomplish their work a great deal quicker 
than others ; they are naturally quicker men ; that is their advantage ; 
I claim that is the advantage they have over the other men ; but in 
arranging that task, I arrange it for the slowest man ; the slowest man 
in the department can accomplish it. You must take into considera- 
tion that this labor here is forced labor, and there are but very few 
men in the Penitentiary would perform a full day's work every day, 
unless he was forced to do it ; some days men might feel like work, 
willing to work, and would do it ; but when he didn't feel like doing 
it, he wouldn't do it unless he was forced to do it ; then we have men 
that get tired of a certain job he has been working at ; it gets very monot- 
onous, and they get slow and lazy, and spoil the work in order to get 
the contractor to say, " this man is not an expert, and he don't suit me, 
and we will have to turn him out of our shop ;" they do that in order 
to get some of those fancy jobs, where there is a good deal of running 
around : cooking, working about the yard, etc. ; a great many work 
that way for months, in order to get that thing ; therefore, we must be 



83 

very particular ; we would break up a contractor in a very short time ; 
and examine men very thoroughly and hold them up to what is right ; 
I sometimes might get hold of a man probably that was so constituted 
that he could not come to the mark out of that number of men, but I 
soon find that out ; find it out after awhile. 

Q. By the Chairman : You are continually passing around ? 

A. All the time ; and the guards from all the departments every 
morning write me a report ; I look at that, and if there is any com- 
plaint in that shop, I go and see about it ; I frequently have done it — 
many times — I'd take away a man from one of the departments be- 
cause he hadn't the electricity to do the work, had to take him away 
because it was a draw-back to the balance. 

On motion, the committee adjourned to meet at the Capitol in the 
afternoon. 



Capitol, 3 O'Clock p. m. 

The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 

Present — Messrs. Berryman, chairman, Dawson, McGinnis, An- 
thony of Nodaway, Buzzard and Garver. 

Chas. P. Johnson, being duly sworn, testified as follows: 
Q. By the Chairman: Please state to the committee what you 
know in relation to the subject matter of that resolution yesterday 
morning ? 

A. I had heard reports at various times in regard to the use of 
the whip out there as a punishment for refractory prisoners ; I had 
heard sometimes what might have been exaggerated stories, and I 
finally decided I thought it best to introduce the resolution to have 
the legislature examine into it to see whether it was true or false. Ac- 
cording to my own construction of the laws, I don't think that punish- 
ment by whipping is the correct manner of punishment anyhow in 
prison discipline, and so far as facts are concerned, that I left for the 
committee to investigate. 

This is all the testimony there was taken. 



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